Transformation of Man, Part 2: A Mechanical Way of Living Leads to Disorder
May 18, 1976

This trialogue between Krishnamurti, Bohm, and Shainberg methodically uncovers the nature of man’s psyche, his fragmentation, the limitations of a thought-based society, and finds out if there is a wholeness, a sacredness in life which is untouched by thought.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Do we go on where we left off yesterday? Or would you like to start something new?
Prof. David Bohm I felt there was a point that wasn't entirely clear what we were discussing yesterday. Which is that we rather accepted that security, psychological security was wrong, was, you know, illusion; but in general I don't think we made it very clear why we think it is a delusion. You see most people feel that psychological security is a real thing and quite necessary and when it is disturbed, or when a person is frightened, or sorrowful, or even so disturbed that he might be psychologically disturbed and require treatment, he feels that psychological security is necessary before he can even begin to do anything.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Yes, right.
Prof. David Bohm And I think that it isn't at all clear why one should say that it is really not as important as physical security.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Yes. No, I think we have made it fairly clear, didn't we?—but let's go into it.
Prof. David Bohm Yes.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Is there really psychological security at all?
Prof. David Bohm I don't think we discussed that fully last time.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Of course. Nobody accepts that. But we are enquiring into it, going into the problem of it.
Dr. David Shainberg But we said something even deeper I think yesterday. And that is that—at least as I was summarising for myself—and that is that we felt—correct me if you think I am wrong here—that conditioning sets the stage, first the importance of psychological security, and that in turn creates insecurity. And it is the conditioning that creates the psychological security as a focus? Would you agree with that?
Jiddu Krishnamurti I think that we two mean something different.
Dr. David Shainberg What do you mean?
Jiddu Krishnamurti First of all, sir, we take it for granted that there is psychological security.
Dr. David Shainberg Okay. Well, we think that we can get it.
Jiddu Krishnamurti We feel that there is.
Dr. David Shainberg Right. That's right.
Prof. David Bohm Yes, I think that if you told somebody who was feeling very disturbed mentally that there is no psychological security he would just feel worse.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Collapse. Of course.
Dr. David Shainberg Right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti We are talking of fairly sane, rational people.
Dr. David Shainberg Okay.
Jiddu Krishnamurti We are questioning whether there is any psychological security at all; permanency, stability, a sense of well-founded, deep-rooted existence psychologically.
Dr. David Shainberg Maybe if we could say more then, what would be psychological security?
Jiddu Krishnamurti After all, I believe. I believe in something.
Dr. David Shainberg And that gives me…
Jiddu Krishnamurti It may be the most foolish belief…
Dr. David Shainberg Right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti …a neurotic belief. I believe in it.
Dr. David Shainberg Right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti And then that gives you a tremendous sense of existence, living, vitality, and stability.
Prof. David Bohm I think you could think of two examples: one is that if I could really believe that after dying I would go to heaven, and be quite sure of it, then I could be very secure anywhere, not matter what happens.
Dr. David Shainberg That would make you feel good.
Prof. David Bohm Well, I'd say, I don't really have to worry, because it is all a temporary trouble and then I am pretty sure that in time it is all going to be very good. Do you see?
Jiddu Krishnamurti Right. That is the whole Asiatic attitude, more or less.
Dr. David Shainberg Right.
Prof. David Bohm Or if I think I am a Communist, then I say, in time Communism is going to solve everything and we are going through a lot of troubles now but you know it is all going to be worthwhile and it will work out, and in the end it will be all right.
Dr. David Shainberg Right.
Prof. David Bohm If I could be sure of that then I would say I feel very secure inside, even if conditions are hard.
Dr. David Shainberg Okay. All right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti So we are questioning, though one has these strong beliefs which gives them a sense of security, permanency, whether there is such in reality, actuality…
Dr. David Shainberg It is not possible.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Wait!
Dr. David Shainberg The question is: is it possible?
Jiddu Krishnamurti Is it possible.
Dr. David Shainberg Right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti I may believe in god and that gives me a tremendous sense of…
Dr. David Shainberg Right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti …impermanency of this world, but at least there is permanency somewhere else.
Dr. David Shainberg Yes, yes. But I want to ask David something. Do you think that, for instance take a scientist, a guy who is going to his laboratory everyday, or take a doctor, he is getting security. He takes security from the very 'routinization' of his life.
Jiddu Krishnamurti From his knowledge.
Dr. David Shainberg Yes, from his knowledge if he keeps doing this, he feels… In the scientist, where does he get security?
Prof. David Bohm Well, he makes believe he is learning the permanent laws of nature, really getting something that means something.
Dr. David Shainberg Yes.
Prof. David Bohm And also getting a position in society and being sure, being well known and respected and financially secure.
Dr. David Shainberg He believes that these things will give him the thing. The mother believes that the child will give her security.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Don't you psychologically have security?
Dr. David Shainberg Yes, Okay. Right. That's a good point. I get a security out of my knowledge, out of my routine, out of my patients, out of seeing my patients, out of my position.
Prof. David Bohm But there is conflict in that because if I think it over a little bit, I doubt it, I question it. I say, it doesn't look all that secure, anything may happen. I mean I say there may be a war, there may be a depression, there may be a flood.
Dr. David Shainberg Right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti There may be sane people all of a sudden in the world! [Laughter]
Dr. David Shainberg Do you think there is a chance?
Prof. David Bohm So I say there is conflict and confusion in my security because I am not sure about it.
Dr. David Shainberg You are not sure about it.
Prof. David Bohm But if I had an absolute belief in god and heaven.
Jiddu Krishnamurti This is so obvious!
Dr. David Shainberg It is obvious. I agree with you it is obvious, but I think it has to be—in other words, it has to be really felt through.
Jiddu Krishnamurti But, sir, you, Dr Shainberg, you are the victim.
Dr. David Shainberg I'll be the victim.
Jiddu Krishnamurti For the moment. Don't you have strong belief?
Dr. David Shainberg Right. Well, I wouldn't say strong.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Don't you have a sense of permanency somewhere inside you?
Dr. David Shainberg I think I do.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Psychologically?
Dr. David Shainberg Yes, I do. I mean I have a sense of permanency about my intention.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Intention?
Dr. David Shainberg I mean my work.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Your knowledge.
Dr. David Shainberg My knowledge, my…
Jiddu Krishnamurti …status.
Dr. David Shainberg …my status, the continuity of my interest. You know what I mean?
Jiddu Krishnamurti Yes.
Dr. David Shainberg There is a sense of security in the feeling that I can help someone.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Yes.
Dr. David Shainberg And I can do my work. Okay.
Jiddu Krishnamurti That gives you security, psychological security.
Dr. David Shainberg There is something about it that is secure. What am I saying when I say 'security'? I am saying that I won't be lonely.
Jiddu Krishnamurti No, no. Feeling secure that you have something that is impenetrable.
Dr. David Shainberg Which means—no, I don't feel it that way. I feel it more in the sense of what is going to happen in time, am I going to have to depend on, what is my time going to be, am I going to be lonely, is it going to be empty?
Jiddu Krishnamurti No, sir.
Dr. David Shainberg Isn't that security?
Jiddu Krishnamurti As Doctor Bohm pointed out, if one has a strong belief in reincarnation, as the whole Asiatic world has, then it doesn't matter what happens, then in the next life you have a better chance. You might be miserable this life but next life you will be happier. So that gives you a great sense of 'this is unimportant, but that is important'.
Dr. David Shainberg Right, right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti And that gives me a sense of great comfort, great—as though this is a transient world anyhow and eventually I will get there, to something permanent. This is human…
Dr. David Shainberg This is in the Asiatic world; but I think in the western world you don't have that.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Oh, yes you have it.
Dr. David Shainberg With a different focus.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Of course.
Prof. David Bohm It is different but we have always had the search for security.
Dr. David Shainberg Right, right. But what do you think security is? I mean for instance if you became a scientist, you went to the laboratory, you picked up the books all the time. Right? You may not go to the laboratory, but you have had your own laboratory. What the hell do you call security?
Jiddu Krishnamurti Security?
Dr. David Shainberg Yes, but what does he call his security?
Jiddu Krishnamurti Having something…
Dr. David Shainberg Knowledge?
Jiddu Krishnamurti Having something to which you can cling to and which is not perishable. It may perish eventually but at the time, for the time being it is there to hold on to.
Prof. David Bohm You can feel that it is permanent. Like somebody in the past, people used to accumulate gold because gold is the symbol of the imperishable, they could feel.
Dr. David Shainberg We still have people who accumulate gold—we have business men, they have got money.
Prof. David Bohm You feel it is really there.
Jiddu Krishnamurti There.
Prof. David Bohm It will never corrode, it will never vanish and you can count on it, you know.
Dr. David Shainberg So it is something that I can count on.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Count on, hold on to, cling to, be attached to.
Dr. David Shainberg The ‘me’.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Exactly.
Dr. David Shainberg I know that I am a doctor. I can depend on that.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Knowledge, experience.
Dr. David Shainberg Experience.
Jiddu Krishnamurti On the other hand, tradition.
Dr. David Shainberg Tradition. I know that if I do this with a patient that I will get this result. I might not get any good results but I'll get this result.
Jiddu Krishnamurti So I think that is fairly clear.
Prof. David Bohm Yes it is clear enough that we have that, it is part of our society.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Part of our conditioning.
Prof. David Bohm Conditioning, that we want something secure and permanent. At least we think so.
Dr. David Shainberg I think you see that Krishnaji's point about the Eastern world, there is I think a feeling in the West of wanting immortality.
Jiddu Krishnamurti That's the same.
Dr. David Shainberg Same thing.
Prof. David Bohm Wouldn't you say that in so far as thought can project time, that it wants to be able to project everything all right in the future as far as possible.
Dr. David Shainberg That is what I meant when I said loneliness: if I don't have to have my loneliness…
Prof. David Bohm In other words the anticipation of what is coming is already the present feeling. You see if you can anticipate that something bad may come, you already feel bad.
Jiddu Krishnamurti That's right.
Prof. David Bohm Therefore you would like to get rid of that.
Dr. David Shainberg So you anticipate that it won't happen.
Prof. David Bohm That it will all be good.
Dr. David Shainberg Right.
Prof. David Bohm I would say that security would be the anticipation that everything will be good in the future.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Good. Everything will be all right, quite.
Dr. David Shainberg It will continue.
Prof. David Bohm It will become better, if it is not so good now it will become better with certainty.
Dr. David Shainberg So then security is becoming.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Yes, becoming, perfecting, becoming.
Dr. David Shainberg I was thinking what you were saying the other day about the Brahmin. Anybody can become a Brahmin, then that gives him security.
Jiddu Krishnamurti That is, a projected belief, a projected idea, a comforting satisfying concept.
Dr. David Shainberg Right. You see I see patients all the time. Their projected belief is I will become—I will find somebody to love me. I see patients who say, I will become the chief of the department, I will become the most famous doctor one day, I will become… and his whole life goes like that. Because it is also all focused on being the best tennis player, the best.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Of course, of course.
Prof. David Bohm Well, it seems it is all focused on anticipating that life is going to be good, when you say that.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Yes, life is going to be good.
Prof. David Bohm But it seems to me you wouldn't raise the question unless you had a lot of experience that life is not so good, I mean. In other words, it is a reaction to having had to much experience of disappointment, of suffering.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Would you say that we are not conscious of the whole movement of thought?
Prof. David Bohm No, but I mean I think to most people they would say that is only very natural, I have had a lot of experience of suffering and disappointment and danger, and that is unpleasant and I would like to be able to anticipate that everything is going to be good.
Dr. David Shainberg Yes.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Yes.
Prof. David Bohm At first sight it would seem that that is really quite natural. But you are saying it is not now, there is something deeply wrong with it.
Jiddu Krishnamurti We are saying there is no such thing as psychological security. We have defined what we mean by security.
Dr. David Shainberg Yes.
Jiddu Krishnamurti We don't have to beat it over and over.
Dr. David Shainberg No, I think we have got that.
Prof. David Bohm Yes, but is it clear now that these hopes are really vain hopes, that should be obvious, shouldn't it?
Dr. David Shainberg That is a good question. You mean is it—you see, Krishnaji he is raising a good question, it is this whole business of you saying, is it meaningful to look for security. Is there such a thing?
Jiddu Krishnamurti Sir, there is death at the end of everything.
Prof. David Bohm Yes.
Jiddu Krishnamurti You want to be secure for the next ten years, that is all, or fifty years. Afterwards it doesn't matter. Or it does matter then you believe in something. That there is god, you will sit next to god on his right hand, or whatever it is you believe. So I am trying to find out, not only that there is no permanency psychologically, which means no tomorrow psychologically.
Prof. David Bohm That hasn't yet come out.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Of course, of course.
Prof. David Bohm We can say empirically we know these hopes for security are false because first of all you say there is death, secondly you can't count on anything, no matter, materially everything changes.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Everything is in flux.
Prof. David Bohm Mentally everything in your head is changing all the time. You can't count on your feelings, you can't count on enjoying a certain thing that you enjoy now, or you can't count on being healthy, you can't count on money.
Jiddu Krishnamurti You can't rely on your wife, you can rely on nothing.
Dr. David Shainberg Right.
Prof. David Bohm So that is a fact. But I am saying that you are suggesting something deeper.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Yes, sir.
Prof. David Bohm But we don't base ourselves only on that observation.
Jiddu Krishnamurti That is very superficial.
Dr. David Shainberg Yes, I am with you there.
Jiddu Krishnamurti So is there then, if there is no real security, basic deep, then is there a tomorrow, psychologically? And then you take away all hope. If there is no tomorrow you take away all hope.
Prof. David Bohm What you mean by tomorrow, is the tomorrow in which things will get better, I mean.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Better, greater success, greater understanding, greater…
Prof. David Bohm More love.
Jiddu Krishnamurti …more love, you know the whole business.
Dr. David Shainberg I think that is a little quick, that jump. I think that there is a jump there because as I hear you, I hear you saying there is no security.
Jiddu Krishnamurti But it is so.
Dr. David Shainberg It is so. But for me to say, to really say, Look, I know there is no security.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Why don't you say that?
Dr. David Shainberg That is what I am getting at. Why don't I say that?
Prof. David Bohm Well, isn't it a fact, isn't it first of all a fact that, just an observed fact, that there isn't anything you can count on psychologically?
Dr. David Shainberg Right. But you see I think there is an action there. Krishnaji is saying, why don't you.
Prof. David Bohm Why don't you what?
Dr. David Shainberg Why don't you say there is no security? Why don't I?
Jiddu Krishnamurti Can I? May I? Do you rationalise what we are saying about security? Say yes, as an idea. Or actually so?
Dr. David Shainberg I actually say so, but then I say, I'll keep doing it, I'll keep doing it.
Jiddu Krishnamurti No. We are asking: do you when you hear there is no security, is it an abstracted idea? Or an actual fact, like that table, like your hand there, or those flowers?
Dr. David Shainberg I think it mostly becomes an idea.
Jiddu Krishnamurti That is just it.
Prof. David Bohm Why should it become an idea?
Jiddu Krishnamurti That is it.
Dr. David Shainberg That I think is the question: why does it become an idea?
Jiddu Krishnamurti Is it part of your training?
Dr. David Shainberg Part, yes. Part of my conditioning.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Part of a real objection to see things as they are.
Dr. David Shainberg That's right. Because it moves. It feels like it moves there. Do you feel that?
Prof. David Bohm It seems that if you see that there is no security, then it seems first of all let us try to put it that there is something which seems to be there which is trying to protect itself, namely let us say that it seems to be a fact that the self is there. Do you see what I am driving at?
Jiddu Krishnamurti Of course.
Prof. David Bohm And if the self is there it requires security and therefore this creates a resistance to accepting that as a fact and puts it as an idea only. If you see what I mean. It seems that the factuality of the self being there has not been denied. The apparent factuality.
Dr. David Shainberg Right. But why hasn't it? Why do you think it hasn't been? What happens?
Jiddu Krishnamurti Is it that you refuse to see things as they are? Is it that one refuses to see that one is stupid?—Not you, I mean one is stupid. To acknowledge that one is stupid is already—you follow?
Dr. David Shainberg Yes. It is like you say to me you refuse to acknowledge that you are stupid—let us say it is me—that means then I have got to do something, it feels like.
Jiddu Krishnamurti No.
Dr. David Shainberg Something happens to me.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Not yet. Action comes through perception, not through ideation.
Dr. David Shainberg I am glad you are getting into this.
Prof. David Bohm Doesn't it seem that as long as there is the sense of self, the self must say that it is perfect, eternal and so on. Do you see?
Jiddu Krishnamurti Of course, of course.
Dr. David Shainberg What do you think it is? What makes it so hard to say? Is this what you mean when you talk about the destruction in creation?
Jiddu Krishnamurti Yes.
Dr. David Shainberg In other words, is there something here about the destruction that I am not.
Jiddu Krishnamurti You must destroy that.
Dr. David Shainberg I must destroy that. Now what makes it hard for me to destroy? I mean destroy this need for security, why can't I do it?
Jiddu Krishnamurti No, no. It is not how you can do it. You see you are already entering into the realm of action.
Dr. David Shainberg That I think is the crucial point.
Jiddu Krishnamurti But I am not. I say first see it. And from that perception action is inevitable.
Dr. David Shainberg Yes. It's good. All right. Now to see insecurity. Do you see insecurity? Do you actually see it?
Jiddu Krishnamurti What?
Dr. David Shainberg Insecurity.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Ah, no, no. Do you actually see…
Dr. David Shainberg …there is no security.
Jiddu Krishnamurti No, that you are clinging to something, belief and all the rest of it, which gives you security.
Dr. David Shainberg Okay.
Jiddu Krishnamurti I cling to this house. I am safe. It gives me a sense of my house, my father, it gives me pride, it gives me a sense of possession, it gives me a sense of physical and therefore psychological security.
Dr. David Shainberg Right, and a place to go.
Jiddu Krishnamurti A place to go. But I may walk out and be killed and I have lost everything. There might be an earthquake and everything gone. Do you actually see it?
Dr. David Shainberg I actually…
Jiddu Krishnamurti Sir, go to a poor man. He says, Of course I have no security, but he wants it. His security, he says, Well, give me a good job, beer, and constant work and a house, and a good wife and children; that's my security.
Dr. David Shainberg Right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti When there is a strike, he feels lost. But he has got the union behind him.
Dr. David Shainberg Right. But he thinks he is secure.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Secure. And that movement of security enters into the psychological field. My wife, I believe in god, I don't believe in god. If I am a good communist I will have a good paper. The whole thing. Do you see it? You see, the seeing, or the perception of that is total action with regard to security.
Dr. David Shainberg I can see that that is the total action.
Jiddu Krishnamurti No, that is an idea still.
Dr. David Shainberg Yes, you're right. I begin to see that this belief, this whole structure begins to be the whole way that I see everything in the world. Right? I begin to see her, the wife, or I begin to see these people, they fit into that structure.
Jiddu Krishnamurti You see them, your wife, through the image you have about them.
Dr. David Shainberg Right. And to the function they are serving.
Prof. David Bohm Their relation to me, yes.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Yes.
Dr. David Shainberg That is right. That's the function they serve.
Jiddu Krishnamurti The picture, the image, the conclusion is the security.
Dr. David Shainberg That's right.
Prof. David Bohm Yes, but you see why does it present itself as so real? You see I see that there is a thought, a process which is driving on, continually.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Are you asking: why has this image, this conclusion, this, all the rest of it, become so fantastically real?
Prof. David Bohm Yes. It seems to be standing there real, and everything is referred to it.
Jiddu Krishnamurti More real than the marbles, than the hills.
Prof. David Bohm Than anything, yes.
Dr. David Shainberg More real than anything.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Why?
Dr. David Shainberg I think it is hard to say why, except it would give me security.
Jiddu Krishnamurti No. We have gone much further than that.
Prof. David Bohm Because, suppose abstractly and as an idea, we can see the whole thing as no security at all, I mean, just looking at it professionally and abstractly.
Dr. David Shainberg That is putting the cart before the horse.
Prof. David Bohm No, I am just saying that if it were some simple matter, giving that much proof you would have already accepted it, you see.
Dr. David Shainberg Right.
Prof. David Bohm But when it comes to this, no proof seems to work.
Dr. David Shainberg Right. Nothing seems to work.
Prof. David Bohm You say all that but here I am presented with the solid reality of myself and my security, which seems to deny—there is a sort of reaction which seems to say, well, that may be plausible but it really, it's only words. The real thing is me. Do you see?
Dr. David Shainberg But there is more than that. Why it has such potency. I mean why it seems to take on such importance.
Prof. David Bohm Well may be. But I am saying it seems that the real thing is me, which is all important.
Dr. David Shainberg There is no question about it. Me, me, me, is important.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Which is an idea.
Prof. David Bohm But it doesn't… we can say abstractly it is an idea. The question is, how do you break into this process?
Jiddu Krishnamurti No. I think we can break into it, or break through it, or get beyond it, only through perception.
Prof. David Bohm Yes.
Dr. David Shainberg Yes.
Prof. David Bohm Yes, because otherwise every thought is involved in that therefore…
Dr. David Shainberg Because I am going to get through it because it will make me feel good, better.
Prof. David Bohm The trouble is that all that we have been talking about is in the form of ideas. They may be correct ideas but they won't break into this.
Dr. David Shainberg Right.
Prof. David Bohm Because this dominates the whole of thought.
Dr. David Shainberg That is right. I mean you could even ask why are we here. We are here because we wanted to…
Jiddu Krishnamurti No, sir. Look: if I feel my security lies in some image I have, a picture, a symbol, a conclusion, an ideal and so on, I would put it not as an abstraction but bring it down. You see it is so. I believe in something. Actually. Now I say, why do I believe.
Prof. David Bohm Well, have you actually done that?
Jiddu Krishnamurti No, I haven't because I have no beliefs. I have no picture, I don't go in for all those kind of games. I said, if.
Dr. David Shainberg If, right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Then I would bring the abstracted thing into a perceptive reality.
Dr. David Shainberg To see my belief, is that it?
Jiddu Krishnamurti See it.
Dr. David Shainberg To see my belief. Right. To see that 'me' in operation.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Yes, if you like to put it that way. Sir, wait a minute. Take a simple thing: have you a conclusion about something? Conclusion, a concept?
Dr. David Shainberg Yes.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Eh?
Dr. David Shainberg Yes, I think I do.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Now wait a minute. How is that brought about?
Dr. David Shainberg Well, through…
Jiddu Krishnamurti Take a simple thing, not complicated, take a simple thing. A concept that I am an Englishman.
Prof. David Bohm The trouble is that we probably don't feel attached to those concepts.
Jiddu Krishnamurti All right.
Dr. David Shainberg Let's take one that is real for me: take the one about me being a doctor.
Jiddu Krishnamurti A concept.
Dr. David Shainberg That is a concept. That is a conclusion based on training, based on experience, based on the enjoyment of the work.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Which means what? A doctor means, the conclusion means he is capable of certain activities.
Dr. David Shainberg Right, Okay. Let's take it, concretely.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Work at it.
Dr. David Shainberg So now I have got the fact that there is a concrete fact that I have had this training, that I get this pleasure from the work, I get a kind of feed back, I get a whole community of feed in.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Yes, sir.
Dr. David Shainberg Books I've written, papers, positions.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Move, move.
Dr. David Shainberg All right. All that. Now that is my belief. That belief that I am a doctor is based on all that, that concept.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Yes.
Dr. David Shainberg Okay. Now I continually act to continue that.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Yes, sir, that is understood.
Dr. David Shainberg Okay.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Therefore you have a conclusion.
Dr. David Shainberg A conclusion.
Jiddu Krishnamurti You have a concept that you are a doctor.
Dr. David Shainberg Right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Because it is based on knowledge, experience, everyday activity.
Dr. David Shainberg Right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Pleasure and all the rest of it.
Dr. David Shainberg Right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti So what is real in that? What is true in that?
Dr. David Shainberg Sir, what do you mean?
Jiddu Krishnamurti Real in the sense, actual, actual.
Dr. David Shainberg Well, that is a good question. What is actual?
Jiddu Krishnamurti Wait, wait, wait, it's so simple. What is actual in that? Your training.
Dr. David Shainberg Right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Your knowledge.
Dr. David Shainberg Right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Your daily operation.
Dr. David Shainberg Right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti That's all. The rest is a conclusion.
Prof. David Bohm But what is the rest?
Jiddu Krishnamurti The rest: I am very much better than somebody else.
Prof. David Bohm Or else this thing is going to keep me occupied in a good way.
Jiddu Krishnamurti A good way. I will never be lonely.
Dr. David Shainberg Right. I know about what is going to happen because I have this knowledge.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Yes. So?
Prof. David Bohm Well, that is part of it.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Of course, much more.
Dr. David Shainberg Yes, go ahead. I want to hear what you have to say.
Prof. David Bohm But isn't there also a certain fear that if I don't have this then things will be pretty bad?
Jiddu Krishnamurti Of course, of course.
Dr. David Shainberg Right. Okay.
Prof. David Bohm And that fear seems to spur on…
Jiddu Krishnamurti Of course. And if the patients don't turn up?
Prof. David Bohm Then I have no money; fear.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Fear.
Dr. David Shainberg No activity.
Jiddu Krishnamurti So loneliness. Back.
Dr. David Shainberg Back again. Right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti So be occupied.
Dr. David Shainberg Be occupied doing this, completing this concept. Okay? Okay.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Be occupied.
Dr. David Shainberg Right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Now:
Dr. David Shainberg It is very important. Do you realise how important that is to people, all of us, all people, to be occupied?
Jiddu Krishnamurti Of course, sir.
Dr. David Shainberg Do you get the meat of that?
Jiddu Krishnamurti Of course.
Dr. David Shainberg How important it is to people to be occupied. I can see them running around.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Sir, a housewife is occupied.
Prof. David Bohm Exactly.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Remove that occupation, she says, please…
Prof. David Bohm …what shall I do?
Dr. David Shainberg We have that as a fact. Since we put electrical equipment into the houses the women are going crazy, they have got nothing to do with their time.
Jiddu Krishnamurti But, no. The result of this, neglect of their children. Don't talk to me about it!
Dr. David Shainberg [laughs] Right. Okay. Let's go on. Now we have got this fact, occupied.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Occupied. Now is this occupation an abstraction, or actuality?
Dr. David Shainberg Now this is an actuality.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Which?
Dr. David Shainberg Actuality. I am actually occupied.
Jiddu Krishnamurti No.
Prof. David Bohm What is it?
Jiddu Krishnamurti You are actually occupied.
Dr. David Shainberg Yes.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Daily.
Dr. David Shainberg Daily.
Prof. David Bohm Well, what do you really mean by occupied? Do you see, this is what…
Dr. David Shainberg What do you mean?
Prof. David Bohm Well, I can say I am actually doing all the operations. That is clear. I mean I am seeing patients as the doctor.
Dr. David Shainberg You are going to do your thing.
Prof. David Bohm I am doing my thing, getting my reward and so on. And 'occupied' it seems to me has a psychological meaning, further than that, that my mind is in that thing in a relatively harmonious way. There was something I saw on television once of a woman who was highly disturbed and it showed on the encephalograph, but when she was occupied doing her arithmetic sums, the encephalograph went beautifully smooth. She stopped doing the sums and it went all over the place. Do you see, therefore, she had to keep on doing something to keep the brain working right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Which means what?
Dr. David Shainberg Go ahead.
Prof. David Bohm Well, what does it mean?
Jiddu Krishnamurti A mechanical process.
Dr. David Shainberg That's right.
Prof. David Bohm It seems the brain starts jumping all over the place unless it has this thing.
Jiddu Krishnamurti A constant…
Prof. David Bohm …content.
Jiddu Krishnamurti So you have reduced yourself to a machine.
Dr. David Shainberg Don't say it! [Laughter] No, it's not fair. But it is true. I have, I mean, I feel there is a mechanical…
Jiddu Krishnamurti Responses.
Dr. David Shainberg Oh yes, commitment.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Of course.
Prof. David Bohm But why does the brain begin to go so wild when it is not occupied?
Dr. David Shainberg That's right.
Prof. David Bohm The brain begins to jump around wildly when it is not occupied, you see. That seems to be a common experience.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Because in occupation there is security.
Prof. David Bohm There is order.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Order.
Dr. David Shainberg In occupation there is a kind of mechanical order.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Mechanical order.
Prof. David Bohm Right. So we feel our security really means we want order. Is that right?
Jiddu Krishnamurti That's it.
Prof. David Bohm We want order inside the brain.
Dr. David Shainberg That's right.
Prof. David Bohm We want to be able to project order into the future, for ever.
Jiddu Krishnamurti That's right.
Dr. David Shainberg That's right. But would you say that you can get it by mechanical order?
Prof. David Bohm Then we get dissatisfied with it, you see, you say, I am getting sick, bored with it, I am sick of this mechanical life, I want something more interesting.
Jiddu Krishnamurti That is where the gurus come in! [Laughter]
Prof. David Bohm Then the thing goes wild again. Do you see the mechanical order won't satisfy it because it works for a little while.
Dr. David Shainberg I don't like the way something is slipping in there. You say that we are going like from one thing to another. I am looking for satisfaction and then I am not satisfied.
Prof. David Bohm I am looking for some regular order which is good, do you see. And I think that by my job as a doctor I am getting it.
Dr. David Shainberg Yes.
Prof. David Bohm But after a while I begin to feel it is too repetitious, I am getting bored.
Dr. David Shainberg Okay. But suppose that doesn't happen. Suppose some people become satisfied with their job?
Prof. David Bohm Well, they don't really. I mean then they become dull, you see.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Quite. Mechanical; so mechanical they don't… and you stop that mechanism, the brain goes wild.
Dr. David Shainberg That's right.
Prof. David Bohm Right. So they may feel they are a bit dull and they would like some entertainment, or something more interesting and exciting. And therefore there is a contradiction, there is conflict and confusion in the whole thing. Well, take this woman who could always get everything right by doing arithmetical sums, but we can't keep on doing arithmetical sums! [Laughter] I mean somewhere she has got to stop doing these arithmetical sums.
Dr. David Shainberg Right.
Prof. David Bohm Then her brain will go wild again.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Sir, he is asking what is disturbing him. He feels he hasn't put his teeth into it. What is disturbing him?
Dr. David Shainberg You are right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti What is disturbing you?
Dr. David Shainberg Well, it is this feeling that you see people will say that…
Jiddu Krishnamurti No, you say, you.
Dr. David Shainberg I will say, let's say I can get this order, I can get this mechanical order, and I can.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Yes, you can.
Dr. David Shainberg From occupying myself in something I like.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Go on. Proceed.
Dr. David Shainberg I can do it. I mean I can do it, I can do something I like and it gets boring, let's say, or it might get repetitious, but then I will find new parts of it. And then I'll do that some more because that gives me a pleasure, you see. I mean I get a satisfaction out of it.
Prof. David Bohm Right.
Dr. David Shainberg So I keep doing more of that. It is like an accumulative process.
Jiddu Krishnamurti No, you move from one mechanical process…
Dr. David Shainberg Right, right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti …get bored with it, and move to another mechanical process…
Dr. David Shainberg That's right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti …get bored with it and keep going.
Dr. David Shainberg That's right. That's it.
Jiddu Krishnamurti And you call that living!
Dr. David Shainberg That is what I call living.
Prof. David Bohm I see that the trouble in it, even if I accept all that, the trouble is that I now try to be sure that I can keep on doing this, because I can always anticipate a future when I won't be able to do it. You see? I will be a bit too old for the job, or else I'll fail. I'll lose the job, or something. In other words, I still have insecurity in that order.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Essentially, essentially it is mechanical disorder.
Dr. David Shainberg Masking itself as order.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Order. Now, wait a minute. Do you see this? Or is it still an abstraction? Because you know, as Dr Bohm will tell you, idea means observation, the original meaning, the root meaning, observation. Do you observe this?
Dr. David Shainberg I see that, yes. I feel that… I think. Oh, no I think. I see that. I see what I see actually is, I see this, a movement that goes on doing this, and then question, very much like Piaget's theory. Right? In other words, there is assimilation, an accommodation and then there is seeing what doesn't fit and going on with it. And then there is more assimilation, and accommodation, and then going on with it. The psychologist, Piaget, the French psychologist, describes this as the enormity of human brains.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Yes, yes, yes.
Dr. David Shainberg You know this.
Jiddu Krishnamurti I don't have to read Piaget, I can observe it. [laughs]
Prof. David Bohm Right. Then the point is, are you driven to this because you are frightened of the instability of the brain. Do you see? That would mean being occupied with this. And it seems then that is disorder. If you are doing something because you are trying to run away from instability of the brain, that is already disorder.
Dr. David Shainberg Yes, yes.
Prof. David Bohm In other words, that will merely be masking disorder.
Dr. David Shainberg Yes. Well, then you are suggesting that this is being the natural disorder of the brain. Are you suggesting a natural disorder?
Prof. David Bohm No, I am saying that the brain seems to be disordered. This seems to be a fact. Right? That the brain without occupation goes, tends to go, into disorder.
Dr. David Shainberg Without the mechanics we get this. That is what we know, without the mechanics.
Jiddu Krishnamurti So that is frightened of it.
Dr. David Shainberg Frightened.
Prof. David Bohm Well, it is dangerous actually because one feels it is dangerous if it keeps doing this because of what is going to happen.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Of course, it is dangerous.
Prof. David Bohm I mean I may do all sorts of crazy things.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Yes. All the neurotics, you know all that business.
Prof. David Bohm In other words, I feel that the main danger comes from within, you see.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Absolutely. Now, if, when you see it, observe it, there is action which is not fragmented.
Prof. David Bohm You see, I see that one can feel that you do not know whether this disorder can stop. In other words if you were sure that it could stop, that religion, that god will take care of it, or something, then you will have security.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Quite.
Prof. David Bohm That god will give you eternal bliss.
Dr. David Shainberg Then you don't feel that anything… you don't feel that you can depend on anything.
Prof. David Bohm Nothing can control that disorder. You see that this really seems to be the thing that there is nothing that can control that disorder. You may take pills, or do various things, but it is always there in the background.
Dr. David Shainberg Right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Quite right.
Prof. David Bohm I don't know whether we should say, one question is, why do we have this disorder, you see? If it were built into the structure of the brain, seeing this is human nature, then there would be no way out.
Jiddu Krishnamurti No, sir. I think the disorder arises, doesn't it, first when there are mechanical processes going on. And in that mechanical process the brain feels secure, and when that mechanical process is disturbed it becomes insecure.
Dr. David Shainberg Then it does it again.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Again, and again, and again, and again.
Dr. David Shainberg It never stays with that insecurity.
Jiddu Krishnamurti No, no. When it perceives this process it is still mechanical, and therefore disorder.
Prof. David Bohm The question is: why does the brain get caught in mechanism? You see. In other words, it seems in the situation the brain gets caught in mechanical process.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Because it is the safest, the most secure way of living.
Prof. David Bohm Well, it appears that way. But it is actually very…
Jiddu Krishnamurti Not, appears. It is so for the time being.
Prof. David Bohm For the time being, but in the long run it is not.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Ah, in the long run…
Dr. David Shainberg Are you saying we are time bound, are you saying we are conditioned to be time bound?
Jiddu Krishnamurti No. Conditioned to be time bound: conditioned by our tradition, by our education, by the culture we live in and so on and so on, to operate mechanically.
Dr. David Shainberg We take the easy way.
Jiddu Krishnamurti The easy way.
Prof. David Bohm But it is also a kind of mistake to say, let's say, in the beginning the mechanical way shows signs of being safer, and at the beginning the brain makes a mistake let's say, and says, This is safer, but then somehow it fails to be able to see that it has made a mistake, it holds to this mistake. In the beginning you might call it an innocent mistake to say, This look safer and I will follow it. But then after a while you are getting evidence that it is not so safe, but the brain begins to reject it, keep away from it.
Dr. David Shainberg Well, I think you could raise the issue whether there aren't certain given facts in child rearing. I mean when the mother feels the baby is crying and she jams a nipple in its mouth, that is teaching the baby that you shut up and take the easy way out.
Jiddu Krishnamurti No, poor baby. [laughs]
Prof. David Bohm Well there is a lot of conditioning.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Well, that is only the mothers who don't want babies when they jam in the nipples. Don't, no, don't say that.
Prof. David Bohm Well I meant that is part of the conditioning that explains how it is propagated. But you see it still doesn't explain why the brain doesn't see at some stage that it is wrong.
Dr. David Shainberg Why doesn't it see at some stage that it is wrong?
Prof. David Bohm In other words, it continues in this mechanical process rather than seeing that it is wrong.
Jiddu Krishnamurti You are asking: why doesn't it see that this mechanical process is essentially disorder.
Prof. David Bohm It is essentially disorder and dangerous.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Dangerous.
Prof. David Bohm Its security is totally delusory.
Dr. David Shainberg Why isn't there some sort of feedback? In other words, I do something and it comes out wrong. At some point I ought to realise that. Why don't I realise? I should have seen my life is mechanical.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Now wait. You see it?
Dr. David Shainberg But I don't.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Wait. Why is it mechanical?
Dr. David Shainberg Well, it is mechanical because it goes like this: it is all action and reaction.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Why is it mechanical?
Dr. David Shainberg It is repetitious.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Which is mechanical.
Dr. David Shainberg Which is mechanical. I want it to be easy. That is also mechanical. I want it to be easy. I feel that that gives me the most security, to keep it mechanical. I get a boundary. I know it is like you say I have the house, I have got my mechanical life, that gives me security, it is mechanical because it is repetitious.
Jiddu Krishnamurti But you haven't answered my question.
Dr. David Shainberg I know I haven't! It is mechanical. I am not sure what your question is. Your question is why…
Jiddu Krishnamurti …has it become mechanical.
Dr. David Shainberg Why.
Prof. David Bohm Why does it remain mechanical?
Jiddu Krishnamurti Why does it become and remain mechanical?
Dr. David Shainberg I think it remains mechanical, it is the thing we began with.
Jiddu Krishnamurti No, pursue it. Why does it remain mechanical?
Dr. David Shainberg I don't see it is mechanical.
Jiddu Krishnamurti What has caused us to accept this mechanical process, way of living?
Dr. David Shainberg I am not sure I can answer that. The feel of it is that I would see the insecurity, I would see.
Jiddu Krishnamurti No, look: wouldn't you be frightened if there was no…
Dr. David Shainberg I would see the uncertainty.
Jiddu Krishnamurti No, no. If the mechanical process of life that one lives suddenly stopped, wouldn't you be frightened?
Dr. David Shainberg Yes.
Prof. David Bohm Wouldn't there be some genuine danger?
Jiddu Krishnamurti That, of course. There is a danger that things might…
Prof. David Bohm …go to pieces.
Jiddu Krishnamurti …go to pieces.
Dr. David Shainberg It is deeper than that.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Wait! Find out, come on.
Dr. David Shainberg It is not just that there is a genuine danger that I would be frightened. It feels like that things take on a terribly moment-by moment effect.
Jiddu Krishnamurti No, sir. Look: would total order give it complete security? Wouldn't it? Total order.
Dr. David Shainberg Yes.
Jiddu Krishnamurti The brain wants total order.
Dr. David Shainberg Right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Otherwise it can't function properly. Therefore it accepts the mechanical, and hoping it won't lead to disaster.
Dr. David Shainberg Right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Hoping it will find order in that.
Prof. David Bohm Could you say that perhaps in the beginning the brain accepted this just simply not knowing that this mechanism would bring disorder and it just went into it in an innocent state?
Jiddu Krishnamurti Yes, caught in a trap.
Prof. David Bohm Yes, but then later it is caught in a trap, you see. And somehow it maintains this disorder, it doesn't want to get out of it.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Because it is frightened of greater disorder.
Prof. David Bohm Yes. It says, all that I've built up may go to pieces. In other words, I am not in the same situation as when I first went in the trap because now I have built up a great structure. I think that structure will go to pieces.
Dr. David Shainberg That's right. I heard one man—I nearly jumped out of my seat—I heard one may say to another, to one of his colleagues, he says, 'I have just published my thirteenth book'. He said it just like that! [Laughter] The way he said it was deadly.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Yes, but what I am trying to get at is, the brain needs this order, otherwise it can't function. It finds order in mechanical process because it is trained from childhood; do as you are told, etc., etc., etc. There is a conditioning going on right away: to live a mechanical life.
Dr. David Shainberg Right.
Prof. David Bohm As also the fear induced of giving up this mechanism at the same time.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Of course, of course.
Prof. David Bohm I mean that you are thinking all the time that without this everything will go to pieces, including especially the brain.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Brain, yes, so they break from this mechanical business and join communities, you know, all the process, which is still mechanical.
Dr. David Shainberg Right, right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Which means the brain must have order. And finds order in a mechanical way. Now do I see, do you see actually the mechanical way of living leads to disorder? Which is, tradition. If I live entirely in the past, which is very orderly, I think it is very orderly, and what takes place? I am already dead and I can't meet anything.
Dr. David Shainberg I am repeating myself always, right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti So please don't disturb my tradition! The communists say that, the Catholics say that—you follow?—the same thing. And every human being says, 'Please, I have found something which gives me order; a belief, a hope, this, or that; and leave me alone.'
Dr. David Shainberg Right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti And life isn't going to leave them alone. So he gets frightened and establishes another mechanical habit. Now do you see this whole thing? And therefore an instant action breaking it all away and therefore order. The brain that says, at last I have an order which is absolutely indestructible.
Prof. David Bohm Well, I think you see, it doesn't follow from what you said that this will happen.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Of course.
Prof. David Bohm In other words, you are saying this.
Jiddu Krishnamurti I am saying it.
Prof. David Bohm I mean but it doesn't follow logically.
Jiddu Krishnamurti It will follow logically if you go into it.
Prof. David Bohm If we go into it. Can we reach a point where it really follows necessarily?
Jiddu Krishnamurti I think we can only go into it if you perceive the mechanical security which the brain has developed, attached and cultivated.
Dr. David Shainberg Can I share with you something, that as you are talking I find myself, I see it in a certain way though, I see it like this—don't get impatient with me too quickly! But I see it this way: it is like I can see the mechanicalness. Right? And I see that I see, and I was flashing through my mind various kinds of interchanges between people. And the way they talk, they way I talk to them at a party, at a cocktail party, and it is all about what happened before.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Quite, quite.
Dr. David Shainberg You can see them telling you who they are, in terms of their past.
Jiddu Krishnamurti What they will be.
Dr. David Shainberg What they will be. This guy I just described to you, who said, I have published my thirteenth book, he said it like that. It is very important that I get that information, see. And this I see. And I see this elaborate structure. This guy has got in his head that I am going to think this about him, and then he is going to go to his university and he is going to be thought that. He is always living like that and the whole structure is elaborate. Right?
Jiddu Krishnamurti Are you doing that?
Dr. David Shainberg [laughs] When did you stop beating your wife! Of course I am doing it. I am doing it right now, I am seeing the structure right now, all the time.
Jiddu Krishnamurti But do you see that we were saying yesterday, fragmentary action is mechanical action.
Dr. David Shainberg That's right. It is there, Krishnaji. It is there, that's the way we are.
Jiddu Krishnamurti No, sir, and therefore political action can never solve any problems, human problems; or the scientist, as a fragment.
Dr. David Shainberg But do you realise what you are saying? Let us really look at what you are saying. This is the way it is. This is the way life is.
Jiddu Krishnamurti That's right.
Dr. David Shainberg Right? This is the way it is. Years and years and years.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Therefore, why don't you change it?
Dr. David Shainberg Change it. That's right. But this is the way it is. We live in terms of our structures. We live in terms of our history. We live in terms of our mechanics. We live in terms of our form. This is the way we live.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Which means, as we were saying at Ojai, when the past meets the present and ends there, there is a totally different thing takes place.
Dr. David Shainberg Yes. But the past doesn't meet the present so often.
Jiddu Krishnamurti I mean it is taking place now.
Dr. David Shainberg Now it's coming, right now. Right. We are seeing it now.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Therefore can you stop there?
Dr. David Shainberg We must see it totally.
Jiddu Krishnamurti No. The fact, simple fact: the past meets the present. That is a fact.
Prof. David Bohm Let us see, how does the past meet the present? Let us go into that.
Jiddu Krishnamurti We have got four minutes.
Dr. David Shainberg How do you say the past meets the present? We have got two minutes now! [laughs]
Prof. David Bohm Well, I think just briefly that the past meeting the present stops, that the past is generally active in the present towards the future. Now when the past meets the present then the past stops acting. And what it means is that thought stops acting so that order comes about.
Dr. David Shainberg Do you think that the past meets the present, or the present meets the past?
Jiddu Krishnamurti No. How do you meet me?
Dr. David Shainberg I meet you in the present.
Jiddu Krishnamurti No. How do you meet me? With all the memories, all the images, the reputation, the words, the pictures, the symbol, all that, with that which is the past, you meet me now.
Dr. David Shainberg That's right. That's right. I come to you with a…
Jiddu Krishnamurti No, no. The past is meeting the present.
Prof. David Bohm Aren't you saying…
Dr. David Shainberg That's right, go ahead.
Prof. David Bohm That the past should stop meeting the present?
Dr. David Shainberg No. He is not saying that. You can't say that.
Jiddu Krishnamurti I am saying something, which is…
Dr. David Shainberg Let him say it.
Jiddu Krishnamurti What I am trying to say is that the past meets the present.
Dr. David Shainberg And then?
Jiddu Krishnamurti Can the past end there? Not move forward.
Dr. David Shainberg Can it? But is that a right question? Or is it, what is the past meeting the present? What is that action?
Jiddu Krishnamurti I meet you with a picture.
Dr. David Shainberg Why should I stop?
Jiddu Krishnamurti I will show it to you. I meet you with the past, my memories, but you might have changed all that in the meantime. So I never meet you. I meet you with the past.
Dr. David Shainberg Right. That is fact.
Jiddu Krishnamurti That is a fact. Now if I don't have that movement going on…
Dr. David Shainberg But I do.
Jiddu Krishnamurti Of course you do. But I say that is disorder. I can't meet you there.
Dr. David Shainberg Right. How do you know that?
Jiddu Krishnamurti I only know… I don't know it. I only know the fact that when the past meets the present and continues, it is one of the factors of time, movement, bondage, all the fear, and so on. If, when there is the past meeting the present, and says yes, I am fully aware of this, completely aware of this movement, then it stops. Then I meet you as though for the first time, there is something fresh, it is like a new flower coming out.
Dr. David Shainberg Yes, I understand.
Jiddu Krishnamurti I think we will go on tomorrow. We haven't really tackled the root of all this, the root, the cause or the root of all this disturbance, this turmoil, travail, anxiety—you follow?
Prof. David Bohm Why should the brain be in this wild disorder?
Jiddu Krishnamurti I know, wild. You, who are a doctor, an analyst and all the rest of it, you have to ask that fundamental question—why? Why do human beings live this way?
Dr. David Shainberg Right. Why do they? I ask that all the time. Why are human beings sick?
Jiddu Krishnamurti Time. [Laughter]
Prof. David Bohm Right.
Dr. David Shainberg Double-edged…


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