Transformation of Man, Part 2: A Mechanical Way of Living Leads to Disorder

May 18, 1976

This trialogue between Krishnamurti, Bohm, and Shainberg methodically uncovers the nature of man’s psyche, his fragmentation, the limitations of a thought-based society, and finds out if there is a wholeness, a sacredness in life which is untouched by thought.

Jiddu KrishnamurtiDo we go on where we left off yesterday? Or would you like to start something new?
Prof. David BohmI felt there was a point that wasn't entirely clear what we were discussing yesterday. Which is that we rather accepted that security, psychological security was wrong, was, you know, illusion; but in general I don't think we made it very clear why we think it is a delusion. You see most people feel that psychological security is a real thing and quite necessary and when it is disturbed, or when a person is frightened, or sorrowful, or even so disturbed that he might be psychologically disturbed and require treatment, he feels that psychological security is necessary before he can even begin to do anything.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYes, right.
Prof. David BohmAnd I think that it isn't at all clear why one should say that it is really not as important as physical security.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYes. No, I think we have made it fairly clear, didn't we?—but let's go into it.
Prof. David BohmYes.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiIs there really psychological security at all?
Prof. David BohmI don't think we discussed that fully last time.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiOf course. Nobody accepts that. But we are enquiring into it, going into the problem of it.
Dr. David ShainbergBut we said something even deeper I think yesterday. And that is that—at least as I was summarising for myself—and that is that we felt—correct me if you think I am wrong here—that conditioning sets the stage, first the importance of psychological security, and that in turn creates insecurity. And it is the conditioning that creates the psychological security as a focus? Would you agree with that?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiI think that we two mean something different.
Dr. David ShainbergWhat do you mean?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiFirst of all, sir, we take it for granted that there is psychological security.
Dr. David ShainbergOkay. Well, we think that we can get it.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWe feel that there is.
Dr. David ShainbergRight. That's right.
Prof. David BohmYes, I think that if you told somebody who was feeling very disturbed mentally that there is no psychological security he would just feel worse.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiCollapse. Of course.
Dr. David ShainbergRight.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWe are talking of fairly sane, rational people.
Dr. David ShainbergOkay.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWe are questioning whether there is any psychological security at all; permanency, stability, a sense of well-founded, deep-rooted existence psychologically.
Dr. David ShainbergMaybe if we could say more then, what would be psychological security?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiAfter all, I believe. I believe in something.
Dr. David ShainbergAnd that gives me…
Jiddu KrishnamurtiIt may be the most foolish belief…
Dr. David ShainbergRight.
Jiddu Krishnamurti…a neurotic belief. I believe in it.
Dr. David ShainbergRight.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiAnd then that gives you a tremendous sense of existence, living, vitality, and stability.
Prof. David BohmI think you could think of two examples: one is that if I could really believe that after dying I would go to heaven, and be quite sure of it, then I could be very secure anywhere, not matter what happens.
Dr. David ShainbergThat would make you feel good.
Prof. David BohmWell, I'd say, I don't really have to worry, because it is all a temporary trouble and then I am pretty sure that in time it is all going to be very good. Do you see?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiRight. That is the whole Asiatic attitude, more or less.
Dr. David ShainbergRight.
Prof. David BohmOr if I think I am a Communist, then I say, in time Communism is going to solve everything and we are going through a lot of troubles now but you know it is all going to be worthwhile and it will work out, and in the end it will be all right.
Dr. David ShainbergRight.
Prof. David BohmIf I could be sure of that then I would say I feel very secure inside, even if conditions are hard.
Dr. David ShainbergOkay. All right.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiSo we are questioning, though one has these strong beliefs which gives them a sense of security, permanency, whether there is such in reality, actuality…
Dr. David ShainbergIt is not possible.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWait!
Dr. David ShainbergThe question is: is it possible?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiIs it possible.
Dr. David ShainbergRight.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiI may believe in god and that gives me a tremendous sense of…
Dr. David ShainbergRight.
Jiddu Krishnamurti…impermanency of this world, but at least there is permanency somewhere else.
Dr. David ShainbergYes, yes. But I want to ask David something. Do you think that, for instance take a scientist, a guy who is going to his laboratory everyday, or take a doctor, he is getting security. He takes security from the very 'routinization' of his life.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiFrom his knowledge.
Dr. David ShainbergYes, from his knowledge if he keeps doing this, he feels… In the scientist, where does he get security?
Prof. David BohmWell, he makes believe he is learning the permanent laws of nature, really getting something that means something.
Dr. David ShainbergYes.
Prof. David BohmAnd also getting a position in society and being sure, being well known and respected and financially secure.
Dr. David ShainbergHe believes that these things will give him the thing. The mother believes that the child will give her security.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiDon't you psychologically have security?
Dr. David ShainbergYes, Okay. Right. That's a good point. I get a security out of my knowledge, out of my routine, out of my patients, out of seeing my patients, out of my position.
Prof. David BohmBut there is conflict in that because if I think it over a little bit, I doubt it, I question it. I say, it doesn't look all that secure, anything may happen. I mean I say there may be a war, there may be a depression, there may be a flood.
Dr. David ShainbergRight.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiThere may be sane people all of a sudden in the world! [Laughter]
Dr. David ShainbergDo you think there is a chance?
Prof. David BohmSo I say there is conflict and confusion in my security because I am not sure about it.
Dr. David ShainbergYou are not sure about it.
Prof. David BohmBut if I had an absolute belief in god and heaven.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiThis is so obvious!
Dr. David ShainbergIt is obvious. I agree with you it is obvious, but I think it has to be—in other words, it has to be really felt through.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiBut, sir, you, Dr Shainberg, you are the victim.
Dr. David ShainbergI'll be the victim.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiFor the moment. Don't you have strong belief?
Dr. David ShainbergRight. Well, I wouldn't say strong.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiDon't you have a sense of permanency somewhere inside you?
Dr. David ShainbergI think I do.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiPsychologically?
Dr. David ShainbergYes, I do. I mean I have a sense of permanency about my intention.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiIntention?
Dr. David ShainbergI mean my work.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYour knowledge.
Dr. David ShainbergMy knowledge, my…
Jiddu Krishnamurti…status.
Dr. David Shainberg…my status, the continuity of my interest. You know what I mean?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYes.
Dr. David ShainbergThere is a sense of security in the feeling that I can help someone.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYes.
Dr. David ShainbergAnd I can do my work. Okay.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiThat gives you security, psychological security.
Dr. David ShainbergThere is something about it that is secure. What am I saying when I say 'security'? I am saying that I won't be lonely.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo, no. Feeling secure that you have something that is impenetrable.
Dr. David ShainbergWhich means—no, I don't feel it that way. I feel it more in the sense of what is going to happen in time, am I going to have to depend on, what is my time going to be, am I going to be lonely, is it going to be empty?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo, sir.
Dr. David ShainbergIsn't that security?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiAs Doctor Bohm pointed out, if one has a strong belief in reincarnation, as the whole Asiatic world has, then it doesn't matter what happens, then in the next life you have a better chance. You might be miserable this life but next life you will be happier. So that gives you a great sense of 'this is unimportant, but that is important'.
Dr. David ShainbergRight, right.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiAnd that gives me a sense of great comfort, great—as though this is a transient world anyhow and eventually I will get there, to something permanent. This is human…
Dr. David ShainbergThis is in the Asiatic world; but I think in the western world you don't have that.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiOh, yes you have it.
Dr. David ShainbergWith a different focus.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiOf course.
Prof. David BohmIt is different but we have always had the search for security.
Dr. David ShainbergRight, right. But what do you think security is? I mean for instance if you became a scientist, you went to the laboratory, you picked up the books all the time. Right? You may not go to the laboratory, but you have had your own laboratory. What the hell do you call security?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiSecurity?
Dr. David ShainbergYes, but what does he call his security?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiHaving something…
Dr. David ShainbergKnowledge?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiHaving something to which you can cling to and which is not perishable. It may perish eventually but at the time, for the time being it is there to hold on to.
Prof. David BohmYou can feel that it is permanent. Like somebody in the past, people used to accumulate gold because gold is the symbol of the imperishable, they could feel.
Dr. David ShainbergWe still have people who accumulate gold—we have business men, they have got money.
Prof. David BohmYou feel it is really there.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiThere.
Prof. David BohmIt will never corrode, it will never vanish and you can count on it, you know.
Dr. David ShainbergSo it is something that I can count on.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiCount on, hold on to, cling to, be attached to.
Dr. David ShainbergThe ‘me’.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiExactly.
Dr. David ShainbergI know that I am a doctor. I can depend on that.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiKnowledge, experience.
Dr. David ShainbergExperience.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiOn the other hand, tradition.
Dr. David ShainbergTradition. I know that if I do this with a patient that I will get this result. I might not get any good results but I'll get this result.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiSo I think that is fairly clear.
Prof. David BohmYes it is clear enough that we have that, it is part of our society.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiPart of our conditioning.
Prof. David BohmConditioning, that we want something secure and permanent. At least we think so.
Dr. David ShainbergI think you see that Krishnaji's point about the Eastern world, there is I think a feeling in the West of wanting immortality.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiThat's the same.
Dr. David ShainbergSame thing.
Prof. David BohmWouldn't you say that in so far as thought can project time, that it wants to be able to project everything all right in the future as far as possible.
Dr. David ShainbergThat is what I meant when I said loneliness: if I don't have to have my loneliness…
Prof. David BohmIn other words the anticipation of what is coming is already the present feeling. You see if you can anticipate that something bad may come, you already feel bad.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiThat's right.
Prof. David BohmTherefore you would like to get rid of that.
Dr. David ShainbergSo you anticipate that it won't happen.
Prof. David BohmThat it will all be good.
Dr. David ShainbergRight.
Prof. David BohmI would say that security would be the anticipation that everything will be good in the future.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiGood. Everything will be all right, quite.
Dr. David ShainbergIt will continue.
Prof. David BohmIt will become better, if it is not so good now it will become better with certainty.
Dr. David ShainbergSo then security is becoming.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYes, becoming, perfecting, becoming.
Dr. David ShainbergI was thinking what you were saying the other day about the Brahmin. Anybody can become a Brahmin, then that gives him security.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiThat is, a projected belief, a projected idea, a comforting satisfying concept.
Dr. David ShainbergRight. You see I see patients all the time. Their projected belief is I will become—I will find somebody to love me. I see patients who say, I will become the chief of the department,I will become the most famous doctor one day,I will become… and his whole life goes like that. Because it is also all focused on being the best tennis player, the best.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiOf course, of course.
Prof. David Bohm Well, it seems it is all focused on anticipating that life is going to be good, when you say that.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYes, life is going to be good.
Prof. David BohmBut it seems to me you wouldn't raise the question unless you had a lot of experience that life is not so good, I mean. In other words, it is a reaction to having had to much experience of disappointment, of suffering.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWould you say that we are not conscious of the whole movement of thought?
Prof. David BohmNo, but I mean I think to most people they would say that is only very natural, I have had a lot of experience of suffering and disappointment and danger, and that is unpleasant and I would like to be able to anticipate that everything is going to be good.
Dr. David ShainbergYes.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYes.
Prof. David BohmAt first sight it would seem that that is really quite natural. But you are saying it is not now, there is something deeply wrong with it.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWe are saying there is no such thing as psychological security. We have defined what we mean by security.
Dr. David ShainbergYes.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWe don't have to beat it over and over.
Dr. David ShainbergNo, I think we have got that.
Prof. David BohmYes, but is it clear now that these hopes are really vain hopes, that should be obvious, shouldn't it?
Dr. David ShainbergThat is a good question. You mean is it—you see, Krishnaji he is raising a good question, it is this whole business of you saying, is it meaningful to look for security. Is there such a thing?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiSir, there is death at the end of everything.
Prof. David BohmYes.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYou want to be secure for the next ten years, that is all, or fifty years. Afterwards it doesn't matter. Or it does matter then you believe in something. That there is god, you will sit next to god on his right hand, or whatever it is you believe. So I am trying to find out, not only that there is no permanency psychologically, which means no tomorrow psychologically.
Prof. David BohmThat hasn't yet come out.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiOf course, of course.
Prof. David BohmWe can say empirically we know these hopes for security are false because first of all you say there is death, secondly you can't count on anything, no matter, materially everything changes.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiEverything is in flux.
Prof. David BohmMentally everything in your head is changing all the time. You can't count on your feelings, you can't count on enjoying a certain thing that you enjoy now, or you can't count on being healthy, you can't count on money.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYou can't rely on your wife, you can rely on nothing.
Dr. David ShainbergRight.
Prof. David BohmSo that is a fact. But I am saying that you are suggesting something deeper.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYes, sir.
Prof. David BohmBut we don't base ourselves only on that observation.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiThat is very superficial.
Dr. David ShainbergYes, I am with you there.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiSo is there then, if there is no real security, basic deep, then is there a tomorrow, psychologically? And then you take away all hope. If there is no tomorrow you take away all hope.
Prof. David BohmWhat you mean by tomorrow, is the tomorrow in which things will get better, I mean.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiBetter, greater success, greater understanding, greater…
Prof. David BohmMore love.
Jiddu Krishnamurti…more love, you know the whole business.
Dr. David ShainbergI think that is a little quick, that jump. I think that there is a jump there because as I hear you, I hear you saying there is no security.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiBut it is so.
Dr. David ShainbergIt is so. But for me to say, to really say, Look, I know there is no security.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWhy don't you say that?
Dr. David ShainbergThat is what I am getting at. Why don't I say that?
Prof. David BohmWell, isn't it a fact, isn't it first of all a fact that, just an observed fact, that there isn't anything you can count on psychologically?
Dr. David ShainbergRight. But you see I think there is an action there. Krishnaji is saying, why don't you.
Prof. David BohmWhy don't you what?
Dr. David ShainbergWhy don't you say there is no security? Why don't I?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiCan I? May I? Do you rationalise what we are saying about security? Say yes, as an idea. Or actually so?
Dr. David ShainbergI actually say so, but then I say, I'll keep doing it, I'll keep doing it.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo. We are asking: do you when you hear there is no security, is it an abstracted idea? Or an actual fact, like that table, like your hand there, or those flowers?
Dr. David ShainbergI think it mostly becomes an idea.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiThat is just it.
Prof. David BohmWhy should it become an idea?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiThat is it.
Dr. David ShainbergThat I think is the question: why does it become an idea?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiIs it part of your training?
Dr. David ShainbergPart, yes. Part of my conditioning.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiPart of a real objection to see things as they are.
Dr. David ShainbergThat's right. Because it moves. It feels like it moves there. Do you feel that?
Prof. David BohmIt seems that if you see that there is no security, then it seems first of all let us try to put it that there is something which seems to be there which is trying to protect itself, namely let us say that it seems to be a fact that the self is there. Do you see what I am driving at?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiOf course.
Prof. David BohmAnd if the self is there it requires security and therefore this creates a resistance to accepting that as a fact and puts it as an idea only. If you see what I mean. It seems that the factuality of the self being there has not been denied. The apparent factuality.
Dr. David ShainbergRight. But why hasn't it? Why do you think it hasn't been? What happens?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiIs it that you refuse to see things as they are? Is it that one refuses to see that one is stupid?—Not you, I mean one is stupid. To acknowledge that one is stupid is already—you follow?
Dr. David ShainbergYes. It is like you say to me you refuse to acknowledge that you are stupid—let us say it is me—that means then I have got to do something, it feels like.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo.
Dr. David ShainbergSomething happens to me.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNot yet. Action comes through perception, not through ideation.
Dr. David ShainbergI am glad you are getting into this.
Prof. David BohmDoesn't it seem that as long as there is the sense of self, the self must say that it is perfect, eternal and so on. Do you see?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiOf course, of course.
Dr. David ShainbergWhat do you think it is? What makes it so hard to say? Is this what you mean when you talk about the destruction in creation?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYes.
Dr. David ShainbergIn other words, is there something here about the destruction that I am not.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYou must destroy that.
Dr. David ShainbergI must destroy that. Now what makes it hard for me to destroy? I mean destroy this need for security, why can't I do it?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo, no. It is not how you can do it. You see you are already entering into the realm of action.
Dr. David ShainbergThat I think is the crucial point.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiBut I am not. I say first see it. And from that perception action is inevitable.
Dr. David ShainbergYes. It's good. All right. Now to see insecurity. Do you see insecurity? Do you actually see it?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWhat?
Dr. David ShainbergInsecurity.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiAh, no, no. Do you actually see…
Dr. David Shainberg…there is no security.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo, that you are clinging to something, belief and all the rest of it, which gives you security.
Dr. David ShainbergOkay.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiI cling to this house. I am safe. It gives me a sense of my house, my father, it gives me pride, it gives me a sense of possession, it gives me a sense of physical and therefore psychological security.
Dr. David ShainbergRight, and a place to go.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiA place to go. But I may walk out and be killed and I have lost everything. There might be an earthquake and everything gone. Do you actually see it?
Dr. David ShainbergI actually…
Jiddu KrishnamurtiSir, go to a poor man. He says, Of course I have no security, but he wants it. His security, he says, Well, give me a good job, beer, and constant work and a house, and a good wife and children; that's my security.
Dr. David ShainbergRight.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWhen there is a strike, he feels lost. But he has got the union behind him.
Dr. David ShainbergRight. But he thinks he is secure.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiSecure. And that movement of security enters into the psychological field. My wife, I believe in god, I don't believe in god. If I am a good communist I will have a good paper. The whole thing. Do you see it? You see, the seeing, or the perception of that is total action with regard to security.
Dr. David ShainbergI can see that that is the total action.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo, that is an idea still.
Dr. David ShainbergYes, you're right. I begin to see that this belief, this whole structure begins to be the whole way that I see everything in the world. Right? I begin to see her, the wife, or I begin to see these people, they fit into that structure.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYou see them, your wife, through the image you have about them.
Dr. David ShainbergRight. And to the function they are serving.
Prof. David BohmTheir relation to me, yes.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYes.
Dr. David ShainbergThat is right. That's the function they serve.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiThe picture, the image, the conclusion is the security.
Dr. David ShainbergThat's right.
Prof. David BohmYes, but you see why does it present itself as so real? You see I see that there is a thought, a process which is driving on, continually.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiAre you asking: why has this image, this conclusion, this, all the rest of it, become so fantastically real?
Prof. David BohmYes. It seems to be standing there real, and everything is referred to it.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiMore real than the marbles, than the hills.
Prof. David BohmThan anything, yes.
Dr. David ShainbergMore real than anything.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWhy?
Dr. David ShainbergI think it is hard to say why, except it would give me security.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo. We have gone much further than that.
Prof. David BohmBecause, suppose abstractly and as an idea, we can see the whole thing as no security at all, I mean, just looking at it professionally and abstractly.
Dr. David ShainbergThat is putting the cart before the horse.
Prof. David BohmNo, I am just saying that if it were some simple matter, giving that much proof you would have already accepted it, you see.
Dr. David ShainbergRight.
Prof. David BohmBut when it comes to this, no proof seems to work.
Dr. David ShainbergRight. Nothing seems to work.
Prof. David BohmYou say all that but here I am presented with the solid reality of myself and my security, which seems to deny—there is a sort of reaction which seems to say, well, that may be plausible but it really, it's only words. The real thing is me. Do you see?
Dr. David ShainbergBut there is more than that. Why it has such potency. I mean why it seems to take on such importance.
Prof. David BohmWell may be. But I am saying it seems that the real thing is me, which is all important.
Dr. David ShainbergThere is no question about it. Me, me, me, is important.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWhich is an idea.
Prof. David BohmBut it doesn't… we can say abstractly it is an idea. The question is, how do you break into this process?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo. I think we can break into it, or break through it, or get beyond it, only through perception.
Prof. David BohmYes.
Dr. David ShainbergYes.
Prof. David BohmYes, because otherwise every thought is involved in that therefore…
Dr. David ShainbergBecause I am going to get through it because it will make me feel good, better.
Prof. David BohmThe trouble is that all that we have been talking about is in the form of ideas. They may be correct ideas but they won't break into this.
Dr. David ShainbergRight.
Prof. David BohmBecause this dominates the whole of thought.
Dr. David ShainbergThat is right. I mean you could even ask why are we here. We are here because we wanted to…
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo, sir. Look: if I feel my security lies in some image I have, a picture, a symbol, a conclusion, an ideal and so on, I would put it not as an abstraction but bring it down. You see it is so. I believe in something. Actually. Now I say, why do I believe.
Prof. David BohmWell, have you actually done that?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo, I haven't because I have no beliefs. I have no picture, I don't go in for all those kind of games. I said, if.
Dr. David ShainbergIf, right.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiThen I would bring the abstracted thing into a perceptive reality.
Dr. David ShainbergTo see my belief, is that it?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiSee it.
Dr. David ShainbergTo see my belief. Right. To see that 'me' in operation.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYes, if you like to put it that way. Sir, wait a minute. Take a simple thing: have you a conclusion about something? Conclusion, a concept?
Dr. David ShainbergYes.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiEh?
Dr. David ShainbergYes, I think I do.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNow wait a minute. How is that brought about?
Dr. David ShainbergWell, through…
Jiddu KrishnamurtiTake a simple thing, not complicated, take a simple thing. A concept that I am an Englishman.
Prof. David BohmThe trouble is that we probably don't feel attached to those concepts.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiAll right.
Dr. David ShainbergLet's take one that is real for me: take the one about me being a doctor.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiA concept.
Dr. David ShainbergThat is a concept. That is a conclusion based on training, based on experience, based on the enjoyment of the work.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWhich means what? A doctor means, the conclusion means he is capable of certain activities.
Dr. David ShainbergRight, Okay. Let's take it, concretely.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWork at it.
Dr. David ShainbergSo now I have got the fact that there is a concrete fact that I have had this training, that I get this pleasure from the work, I get a kind of feed back, I get a whole community of feed in.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYes, sir.
Dr. David ShainbergBooks I've written, papers, positions.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiMove, move.
Dr. David ShainbergAll right. All that. Now that is my belief. That belief that I am a doctor is based on all that, that concept.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYes.
Dr. David ShainbergOkay. Now I continually act to continue that.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYes, sir, that is understood.
Dr. David ShainbergOkay.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiTherefore you have a conclusion.
Dr. David ShainbergA conclusion.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYou have a concept that you are a doctor.
Dr. David ShainbergRight.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiBecause it is based on knowledge, experience, everyday activity.
Dr. David ShainbergRight.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiPleasure and all the rest of it.
Dr. David ShainbergRight.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiSo what is real in that? What is true in that?
Dr. David ShainbergSir, what do you mean?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiReal in the sense, actual, actual.
Dr. David ShainbergWell, that is a good question. What is actual?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWait, wait, wait, it's so simple. What is actual in that? Your training.
Dr. David ShainbergRight.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYour knowledge.
Dr. David ShainbergRight.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYour daily operation.
Dr. David ShainbergRight.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiThat's all. The rest is a conclusion.
Prof. David BohmBut what is the rest?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiThe rest: I am very much better than somebody else.
Prof. David BohmOr else this thing is going to keep me occupied in a good way.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiA good way. I will never be lonely.
Dr. David ShainbergRight. I know about what is going to happen because I have this knowledge.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYes. So?
Prof. David BohmWell, that is part of it.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiOf course, much more.
Dr. David ShainbergYes, go ahead. I want to hear what you have to say.
Prof. David BohmBut isn't there also a certain fear that if I don't have this then things will be pretty bad?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiOf course, of course.
Dr. David ShainbergRight. Okay.
Prof. David BohmAnd that fear seems to spur on…
Jiddu KrishnamurtiOf course. And if the patients don't turn up?
Prof. David BohmThen I have no money; fear.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiFear.
Dr. David ShainbergNo activity.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiSo loneliness. Back.
Dr. David ShainbergBack again. Right.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiSo be occupied.
Dr. David ShainbergBe occupied doing this, completing this concept. Okay? Okay.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiBe occupied.
Dr. David ShainbergRight.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNow:
Dr. David ShainbergIt is very important. Do you realise how important that is to people, all of us, all people, to be occupied?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiOf course, sir.
Dr. David ShainbergDo you get the meat of that?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiOf course.
Dr. David ShainbergHow important it is to people to be occupied. I can see them running around.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiSir, a housewife is occupied.
Prof. David BohmExactly.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiRemove that occupation, she says, please…
Prof. David Bohm…what shall I do?
Dr. David ShainbergWe have that as a fact. Since we put electrical equipment into the houses the women are going crazy, they have got nothing to do with their time.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiBut, no. The result of this, neglect of their children. Don't talk to me about it!
Dr. David Shainberg[laughs] Right. Okay. Let's go on. Now we have got this fact, occupied.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiOccupied. Now is this occupation an abstraction, or actuality?
Dr. David ShainbergNow this is an actuality.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWhich?
Dr. David ShainbergActuality. I am actually occupied.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo.
Prof. David BohmWhat is it?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYou are actually occupied.
Dr. David ShainbergYes.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiDaily.
Dr. David ShainbergDaily.
Prof. David BohmWell, what do you really mean by occupied? Do you see, this is what…
Dr. David ShainbergWhat do you mean?
Prof. David BohmWell, I can say I am actually doing all the operations. That is clear. I mean I am seeing patients as the doctor.
Dr. David ShainbergYou are going to do your thing.
Prof. David BohmI am doing my thing, getting my reward and so on. And 'occupied' it seems to me has a psychological meaning, further than that, that my mind is in that thing in a relatively harmonious way. There was something I saw on television once of a woman who was highly disturbed and it showed on the encephalograph, but when she was occupied doing her arithmetic sums, the encephalograph went beautifully smooth. She stopped doing the sums and it went all over the place. Do you see, therefore, she had to keep on doing something to keep the brain working right.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWhich means what?
Dr. David ShainbergGo ahead.
Prof. David BohmWell, what does it mean?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiA mechanical process.
Dr. David ShainbergThat's right.
Prof. David BohmIt seems the brain starts jumping all over the place unless it has this thing.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiA constant…
Prof. David Bohm …content.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiSo you have reduced yourself to a machine.
Dr. David ShainbergDon't say it! [Laughter] No, it's not fair. But it is true. I have, I mean, I feel there is a mechanical…
Jiddu KrishnamurtiResponses.
Dr. David ShainbergOh yes, commitment.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiOf course.
Prof. David BohmBut why does the brain begin to go so wild when it is not occupied?
Dr. David ShainbergThat's right.
Prof. David BohmThe brain begins to jump around wildly when it is not occupied, you see. That seems to be a common experience.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiBecause in occupation there is security.
Prof. David BohmThere is order.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiOrder.
Dr. David ShainbergIn occupation there is a kind of mechanical order.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiMechanical order.
Prof. David BohmRight. So we feel our security really means we want order. Is that right?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiThat's it.
Prof. David BohmWe want order inside the brain.
Dr. David ShainbergThat's right.
Prof. David BohmWe want to be able to project order into the future, for ever.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiThat's right.
Dr. David ShainbergThat's right. But would you say that you can get it by mechanical order?
Prof. David BohmThen we get dissatisfied with it, you see, you say, I am getting sick, bored with it, I am sick of this mechanical life, I want something more interesting.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiThat is where the gurus come in! [Laughter]
Prof. David BohmThen the thing goes wild again. Do you see the mechanical order won't satisfy it because it works for a little while.
Dr. David ShainbergI don't like the way something is slipping in there. You say that we are going like from one thing to another. I am looking for satisfaction and then I am not satisfied.
Prof. David BohmI am looking for some regular order which is good, do you see. And I think that by my job as a doctor I am getting it.
Dr. David ShainbergYes.
Prof. David BohmBut after a while I begin to feel it is too repetitious, I am getting bored.
Dr. David ShainbergOkay. But suppose that doesn't happen. Suppose some people become satisfied with their job?
Prof. David BohmWell, they don't really. I mean then they become dull, you see.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiQuite. Mechanical; so mechanical they don't… and you stop that mechanism, the brain goes wild.
Dr. David ShainbergThat's right.
Prof. David BohmRight. So they may feel they are a bit dull and they would like some entertainment, or something more interesting and exciting. And therefore there is a contradiction, there is conflict and confusion in the whole thing. Well, take this woman who could always get everything right by doing arithmetical sums, but we can't keep on doing arithmetical sums! [Laughter] I mean somewhere she has got to stop doing these arithmetical sums.
Dr. David ShainbergRight.
Prof. David BohmThen her brain will go wild again.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiSir, he is asking what is disturbing him. He feels he hasn't put his teeth into it. What is disturbing him?
Dr. David ShainbergYou are right.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWhat is disturbing you?
Dr. David ShainbergWell, it is this feeling that you see people will say that…
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo, you say, you.
Dr. David ShainbergI will say, let's say I can get this order, I can get this mechanical order, and I can.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYes, you can.
Dr. David ShainbergFrom occupying myself in something I like.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiGo on. Proceed.
Dr. David ShainbergI can do it. I mean I can do it, I can do something I like and it gets boring, let's say, or it might get repetitious, but then I will find new parts of it. And then I'll do that some more because that gives me a pleasure, you see. I mean I get a satisfaction out of it.
Prof. David BohmRight.
Dr. David ShainbergSo I keep doing more of that. It is like an accumulative process.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo, you move from one mechanical process…
Dr. David ShainbergRight, right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti…get bored with it, and move to another mechanical process…
Dr. David ShainbergThat's right.
Jiddu Krishnamurti…get bored with it and keep going.
Dr. David ShainbergThat's right. That's it.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiAnd you call that living!
Dr. David ShainbergThat is what I call living.
Prof. David BohmI see that the trouble in it, even if I accept all that, the trouble is that I now try to be sure that I can keep on doing this, because I can always anticipate a future when I won't be able to do it. You see? I will be a bit too old for the job, or else I'll fail. I'll lose the job, or something. In other words, I still have insecurity in that order.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiEssentially, essentially it is mechanical disorder.
Dr. David ShainbergMasking itself as order.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiOrder. Now, wait a minute. Do you see this? Or is it still an abstraction? Because you know, as Dr Bohm will tell you, idea means observation, the original meaning, the root meaning, observation. Do you observe this?
Dr. David ShainbergI see that, yes. I feel that… I think. Oh, no I think. I see that. I see what I see actually is, I see this, a movement that goes on doing this, and then question, very much like Piaget's theory. Right? In other words, there is assimilation, an accommodation and then there is seeing what doesn't fit and going on with it. And then there is more assimilation, and accommodation, and then going on with it. The psychologist, Piaget, the French psychologist, describes this as the enormity of human brains.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYes, yes, yes.
Dr. David ShainbergYou know this.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiI don't have to read Piaget, I can observe it. [laughs]
Prof. David BohmRight. Then the point is, are you driven to this because you are frightened of the instability of the brain. Do you see? That would mean being occupied with this. And it seems then that is disorder. If you are doing something because you are trying to run away from instability of the brain, that is already disorder.
Dr. David ShainbergYes, yes.
Prof. David BohmIn other words, that will merely be masking disorder.
Dr. David ShainbergYes. Well, then you are suggesting that this is being the natural disorder of the brain. Are you suggesting a natural disorder?
Prof. David BohmNo, I am saying that the brain seems to be disordered. This seems to be a fact. Right? That the brain without occupation goes, tends to go, into disorder.
Dr. David ShainbergWithout the mechanics we get this. That is what we know, without the mechanics.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiSo that is frightened of it.
Dr. David ShainbergFrightened.
Prof. David BohmWell, it is dangerous actually because one feels it is dangerous if it keeps doing this because of what is going to happen.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiOf course, it is dangerous.
Prof. David BohmI mean I may do all sorts of crazy things.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYes. All the neurotics, you know all that business.
Prof. David BohmIn other words, I feel that the main danger comes from within, you see.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiAbsolutely. Now, if, when you see it, observe it, there is action which is not fragmented.
Prof. David BohmYou see, I see that one can feel that you do not know whether this disorder can stop. In other words if you were sure that it could stop, that religion, that god will take care of it, or something, then you will have security.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiQuite.
Prof. David BohmThat god will give you eternal bliss.
Dr. David ShainbergThen you don't feel that anything… you don't feel that you can depend on anything.
Prof. David BohmNothing can control that disorder. You see that this really seems to be the thing that there is nothing that can control that disorder. You may take pills, or do various things, but it is always there in the background.
Dr. David ShainbergRight.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiQuite right.
Prof. David BohmI don't know whether we should say, one question is, why do we have this disorder, you see? If it were built into the structure of the brain, seeing this is human nature, then there would be no way out.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo, sir. I think the disorder arises, doesn't it, first when there are mechanical processes going on. And in that mechanical process the brain feels secure, and when that mechanical process is disturbed it becomes insecure.
Dr. David ShainbergThen it does it again.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiAgain, and again, and again, and again.
Dr. David ShainbergIt never stays with that insecurity.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo, no. When it perceives this process it is still mechanical, and therefore disorder.
Prof. David BohmThe question is: why does the brain get caught in mechanism? You see. In other words, it seems in the situation the brain gets caught in mechanical process.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiBecause it is the safest, the most secure way of living.
Prof. David BohmWell, it appears that way. But it is actually very…
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNot, appears. It is so for the time being.
Prof. David BohmFor the time being, but in the long run it is not.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiAh, in the long run…
Dr. David ShainbergAre you saying we are time bound, are you saying we are conditioned to be time bound?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo. Conditioned to be time bound: conditioned by our tradition, by our education, by the culture we live in and so on and so on, to operate mechanically.
Dr. David ShainbergWe take the easy way.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiThe easy way.
Prof. David BohmBut it is also a kind of mistake to say, let's say, in the beginning the mechanical way shows signs of being safer, and at the beginning the brain makes a mistake let's say, and says, This is safer, but then somehow it fails to be able to see that it has made a mistake, it holds to this mistake. In the beginning you might call it an innocent mistake to say, This look safer and I will follow it. But then after a while you are getting evidence that it is not so safe, but the brain begins to reject it, keep away from it.
Dr. David ShainbergWell, I think you could raise the issue whether there aren't certain given facts in child rearing. I mean when the mother feels the baby is crying and she jams a nipple in its mouth, that is teaching the baby that you shut up and take the easy way out.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo, poor baby. [laughs]
Prof. David BohmWell there is a lot of conditioning.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWell, that is only the mothers who don't want babies when they jam in the nipples. Don't, no, don't say that.
Prof. David BohmWell I meant that is part of the conditioning that explains how it is propagated. But you see it still doesn't explain why the brain doesn't see at some stage that it is wrong.
Dr. David ShainbergWhy doesn't it see at some stage that it is wrong?
Prof. David BohmIn other words, it continues in this mechanical process rather than seeing that it is wrong.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYou are asking: why doesn't it see that this mechanical process is essentially disorder.
Prof. David BohmIt is essentially disorder and dangerous.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiDangerous.
Prof. David BohmIts security is totally delusory.
Dr. David ShainbergWhy isn't there some sort of feedback? In other words, I do something and it comes out wrong. At some point I ought to realise that. Why don't I realise? I should have seen my life is mechanical.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNow wait. You see it?
Dr. David ShainbergBut I don't.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWait. Why is it mechanical?
Dr. David ShainbergWell, it is mechanical because it goes like this: it is all action and reaction.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWhy is it mechanical?
Dr. David ShainbergIt is repetitious.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWhich is mechanical.
Dr. David ShainbergWhich is mechanical. I want it to be easy. That is also mechanical. I want it to be easy. I feel that that gives me the most security, to keep it mechanical. I get a boundary. I know it is like you say I have the house, I have got my mechanical life, that gives me security, it is mechanical because it is repetitious.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiBut you haven't answered my question.
Dr. David ShainbergI know I haven't! It is mechanical. I am not sure what your question is. Your question is why…
Jiddu Krishnamurti…has it become mechanical.
Dr. David ShainbergWhy.
Prof. David BohmWhy does it remain mechanical?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWhy does it become and remain mechanical?
Dr. David ShainbergI think it remains mechanical, it is the thing we began with.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo, pursue it. Why does it remain mechanical?
Dr. David ShainbergI don't see it is mechanical.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWhat has caused us to accept this mechanical process, way of living?
Dr. David ShainbergI am not sure I can answer that. The feel of it is that I would see the insecurity, I would see.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo, look: wouldn't you be frightened if there was no…
Dr. David ShainbergI would see the uncertainty.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo, no. If the mechanical process of life that one lives suddenly stopped, wouldn't you be frightened?
Dr. David ShainbergYes.
Prof. David BohmWouldn't there be some genuine danger?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiThat, of course. There is a danger that things might…
Prof. David Bohm…go to pieces.
Jiddu Krishnamurti…go to pieces.
Dr. David ShainbergIt is deeper than that.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWait! Find out, come on.
Dr. David ShainbergIt is not just that there is a genuine danger that I would be frightened. It feels like that things take on a terribly moment-by moment effect.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo, sir. Look: would total order give it complete security? Wouldn't it? Total order.
Dr. David ShainbergYes.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiThe brain wants total order.
Dr. David ShainbergRight.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiOtherwise it can't function properly. Therefore it accepts the mechanical, and hoping it won't lead to disaster.
Dr. David ShainbergRight.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiHoping it will find order in that.
Prof. David BohmCould you say that perhaps in the beginning the brain accepted this just simply not knowing that this mechanism would bring disorder and it just went into it in an innocent state?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYes, caught in a trap.
Prof. David BohmYes, but then later it is caught in a trap, you see. And somehow it maintains this disorder, it doesn't want to get out of it.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiBecause it is frightened of greater disorder.
Prof. David BohmYes. It says, all that I've built up may go to pieces. In other words, I am not in the same situation as when I first went in the trap because now I have built up a great structure. I think that structure will go to pieces.
Dr. David ShainbergThat's right. I heard one man—I nearly jumped out of my seat—I heard one may say to another, to one of his colleagues, he says, 'I have just published my thirteenth book'. He said it just like that! [Laughter] The way he said it was deadly.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiYes, but what I am trying to get at is, the brain needs this order, otherwise it can't function. It finds order in mechanical process because it is trained from childhood; do as you are told, etc., etc., etc. There is a conditioning going on right away: to live a mechanical life.
Dr. David ShainbergRight.
Prof. David BohmAs also the fear induced of giving up this mechanism at the same time.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiOf course, of course.
Prof. David BohmI mean that you are thinking all the time that without this everything will go to pieces, including especially the brain.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiBrain, yes, so they break from this mechanical business and join communities, you know, all the process, which is still mechanical.
Dr. David ShainbergRight, right.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWhich means the brain must have order. And finds order in a mechanical way. Now do I see, do you see actually the mechanical way of living leads to disorder? Which is, tradition. If I live entirely in the past, which is very orderly, I think it is very orderly, and what takes place? I am already dead and I can't meet anything.
Dr. David ShainbergI am repeating myself always, right.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiSo please don't disturb my tradition! The communists say that, the Catholics say that—you follow?—the same thing. And every human being says, 'Please, I have found something which gives me order; a belief, a hope, this, or that; and leave me alone.'
Dr. David ShainbergRight.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiAnd life isn't going to leave them alone. So he gets frightened and establishes another mechanical habit. Now do you see this whole thing? And therefore an instant action breaking it all away and therefore order. The brain that says, at last I have an order which is absolutely indestructible.
Prof. David BohmWell, I think you see, it doesn't follow from what you said that this will happen.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiOf course.
Prof. David BohmIn other words, you are saying this.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiI am saying it.
Prof. David BohmI mean but it doesn't follow logically.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiIt will follow logically if you go into it.
Prof. David BohmIf we go into it. Can we reach a point where it really follows necessarily?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiI think we can only go into it if you perceive the mechanical security which the brain has developed, attached and cultivated.
Dr. David ShainbergCan I share with you something, that as you are talking I find myself, I see it in a certain way though, I see it like this—don't get impatient with me too quickly! But I see it this way: it is like I can see the mechanicalness. Right? And I see that I see, and I was flashing through my mind various kinds of interchanges between people. And the way they talk, they way I talk to them at a party, at a cocktail party, and it is all about what happened before.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiQuite, quite.
Dr. David ShainbergYou can see them telling you who they are, in terms of their past.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWhat they will be.
Dr. David ShainbergWhat they will be. This guy I just described to you, who said, I have published my thirteenth book, he said it like that. It is very important that I get that information, see. And this I see. And I see this elaborate structure. This guy has got in his head that I am going to think this about him, and then he is going to go to his university and he is going to be thought that. He is always living like that and the whole structure is elaborate. Right?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiAre you doing that?
Dr. David Shainberg[laughs] When did you stop beating your wife! Of course I am doing it. I am doing it right now, I am seeing the structure right now, all the time.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiBut do you see that we were saying yesterday, fragmentary action is mechanical action.
Dr. David ShainbergThat's right. It is there, Krishnaji. It is there, that's the way we are.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo, sir, and therefore political action can never solve any problems, human problems; or the scientist, as a fragment.
Dr. David ShainbergBut do you realise what you are saying? Let us really look at what you are saying. This is the way it is. This is the way life is.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiThat's right.
Dr. David ShainbergRight? This is the way it is. Years and years and years.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiTherefore, why don't you change it?
Dr. David ShainbergChange it. That's right. But this is the way it is. We live in terms of our structures. We live in terms of our history. We live in terms of our mechanics. We live in terms of our form. This is the way we live.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWhich means, as we were saying at Ojai, when the past meets the present and ends there, there is a totally different thing takes place.
Dr. David ShainbergYes. But the past doesn't meet the present so often.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiI mean it is taking place now.
Dr. David ShainbergNow it's coming, right now. Right. We are seeing it now.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiTherefore can you stop there?
Dr. David ShainbergWe must see it totally.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo. The fact, simple fact: the past meets the present. That is a fact.
Prof. David BohmLet us see, how does the past meet the present? Let us go into that.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWe have got four minutes.
Dr. David ShainbergHow do you say the past meets the present? We have got two minutes now! [laughs]
Prof. David BohmWell, I think just briefly that the past meeting the present stops, that the past is generally active in the present towards the future. Now when the past meets the present then the past stops acting. And what it means is that thought stops acting so that order comes about.
Dr. David ShainbergDo you think that the past meets the present, or the present meets the past?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo. How do you meet me?
Dr. David ShainbergI meet you in the present.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo. How do you meet me? With all the memories, all the images, the reputation, the words, the pictures, the symbol, all that, with that which is the past, you meet me now.
Dr. David ShainbergThat's right. That's right. I come to you with a…
Jiddu KrishnamurtiNo, no. The past is meeting the present.
Prof. David BohmAren't you saying…
Dr. David ShainbergThat's right, go ahead.
Prof. David BohmThat the past should stop meeting the present?
Dr. David ShainbergNo. He is not saying that. You can't say that.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiI am saying something, which is…
Dr. David ShainbergLet him say it.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiWhat I am trying to say is that the past meets the present.
Dr. David ShainbergAnd then?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiCan the past end there? Not move forward.
Dr. David ShainbergCan it? But is that a right question? Or is it, what is the past meeting the present? What is that action?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiI meet you with a picture.
Dr. David ShainbergWhy should I stop?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiI will show it to you. I meet you with the past, my memories, but you might have changed all that in the meantime. So I never meet you. I meet you with the past.
Dr. David ShainbergRight. That is fact.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiThat is a fact. Now if I don't have that movement going on…
Dr. David ShainbergBut I do.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiOf course you do. But I say that is disorder. I can't meet you there.
Dr. David ShainbergRight. How do you know that?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiI only know… I don't know it. I only know the fact that when the past meets the present and continues, it is one of the factors of time, movement, bondage, all the fear, and so on. If, when there is the past meeting the present, and says yes, I am fully aware of this, completely aware of this movement, then it stops. Then I meet you as though for the first time, there is something fresh, it is like a new flower coming out.
Dr. David ShainbergYes, I understand.
Jiddu KrishnamurtiI think we will go on tomorrow. We haven't really tackled the root of all this, the root, the cause or the root of all this disturbance, this turmoil, travail, anxiety—you follow?
Prof. David BohmWhy should the brain be in this wild disorder?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiI know, wild. You, who are a doctor, an analyst and all the rest of it, you have to ask that fundamental question—why? Why do human beings live this way?
Dr. David ShainbergRight. Why do they? I ask that all the time. Why are human beings sick?
Jiddu KrishnamurtiTime. [Laughter]
Prof. David BohmRight.
Dr. David ShainbergDouble-edged…

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