Should we sit quietly for a while or do you want me to talk? I have never attended meetings. I once went to a political meeting in this country and Dr. Besant said ‘Keep out of it’. And I wonder often why we come together like this, listening to a speaker, half-serious, curious and not really wanting to change one’s life totally. One has become rather mediocre, without a flair, without any quality of genius. I am saying ‘genius’in the sense not of any particular talent or a particular gift, but the genius of a mind that comprehends the totality of life, which is our life—a vast complex, contradictory, unhappy existence. And one listens to all this, to what the speaker has to say, and one goes away with partial understanding, with no deep intention and serious attention to bring about a deep psychological revolution. And one wonders often why human beings tolerate the kind of life one leads. You may blame the circumstances, the society, the political organisation, but blaming others hasn’t solved our problem. We drift, and our life seems such a waste, either going to the office from morning till night for the next fifty years or so and then retire to die or vegetate or grumble or fade away quietly.
And when one looks at one’s own life with all its extraordinary beauty, the vastness of what man has achieved technologically, and one wonders why there has been so little beauty in our life. I mean by that word not merely the appearance of beauty, the decoration of the outer, but that quality of great communication with nature. If one loses contact with nature, one loses relationship with other human beings. You may read poems if you are so inclined, you may read all the beautiful sonnets and the lyrical swing of a lovely poem, but imagination is not beauty. The appreciation of a cloud and the love of light in that cloud, and a sheet of water along a dry road, or a bird perched on a single branch—all that enchantment, we rarely see or appreciate or love because we are occupied with our own problems, with our own worries, with our peculiar ideas and fixations. We are never free. And beauty is this quality of freedom which is totally different from independence. When you listen to all this, I wonder what you make of it. Whether we see a dog and love that dog or a rock or a stray cloud passing by, when we have not that sense of extraordinary communication with the world which brings about great beauty, we will become small human beings, mediocre, wasting our extraordinary life and losing all the beauty and the depth of existence. But I am afraid we must get back to realities. Though that is also real, extraordinarily real—the branch, the shadow, the light on a leaf, the fluttering parrot, that’s also actual, real. And when we understand the swaying palm tree and the whole feeling of life, then there is a great sense of depth to beauty. But we are not interested in all that. Are you? I am afraid we aren’t. We will listen, let it slip by. It may sound romantic, sentimental, but beauty is not romantic nor sentimental nor emotional. It is something very, very solid, like a rock in the midst of a fast flowing stream.
So, we will leave that for the moment and come back to what we were saying yesterday, and I think some of it must be repeated, and I hope you won’t mind if one repeats it. We were saying, weren’t we, that where there is tradition, there is no culture. Tradition handed down from generation to generation, certain concepts, beliefs, values, principles, all laid down intellectually and such abiding tradition of 3000 years or days old. In that soil, culture cannot possibly blossom. Culture means to grow, to develop, not merely the intellectual side of life, but the whole totality of one’s own life. Not merely to function in one direction completely, politically or have certain genius with regard to words or with stone or painting, but to develop, cultivate one’s mind and one’s heart. That’s not possible where tradition, that is values handed down—in that soil nothing can grow. And that is what we were saying yesterday.
And also we were saying time which is a very complex thing must be investigated, must be considered. We said time is movement in division. Right? Yesterday, today and tomorrow, the knowledge which man has acquired, both scientific, so-called religious, and experience is, the past. And that past meets the present, modifies itself and goes on—the future. That is the whole movement of time. And we were saying yesterday too that our minds are so conditioned to accept time as a means of comprehension, as a means of becoming, developing, evolving. Our whole life from childhood is based on this idea of becoming, growing, evolving. In a certain sense, both biologically and physically, time does exist. The acorn growing to an oak, that needs time. And we were saying that psychological time doesn’t exist at all. The idea that through time psychologically which is ethically, morally, spiritually, if we can use the word ‘spiritually’without being romantic or nonsensical, to really understand the religious mind—time is destructive element. That is what we talked about yesterday, more or less.
If one may, we must investigate what is order. Order—please just listen—don’t agree or disagree, just like the wind, the breeze comes, so in the same way just listen—order is sequence in space. You understand that? No. We said order cannot exist without sequence, and there must be space. We are going to examine that because—what is the matter with me today? Probably it is the weather, hot—I am not used to this hot weather. Our life is disorderly, confused, contradictory. We are talking very simply. And where there is contradiction, there is no order. Where there is confusion, conflict, there is no order. And our life as we live it daily is a mass of contradiction, confusion and conflict and dishonesty. Right? That’s a fact. And one wonders if order can be brought about in this confusion. Because, without order there is no efficiency, both intellectual or if you have capacity you must have order. Order has nothing whatever to do with sentiment, with romance. Order is very, very sequential, logical, sane. So, we are going to inquire into what is order, whether we can have order, not a blue print, not something laid down by tradition or by a guru or by a leader or by our own little desires and compulsions but we are going to inquire into what is lasting order. Are you interested in this? How to bring about order in our life so that there is no opposites, duality, contradiction, dishonesty, politically, religiously or in our relationship with each other. You are interested in this? Or do you want me to talk about meditation? And you can go off into some kind of illusion and think we are meditating. Because you see, without bringing about order in our daily life, do what you will, there can be no meditation. Right?
So, we are laying the foundation of what is meditation. If one realises actually what our daily life is, how disorderly it is, how contradictory it is, controlled by various objects of desire—seeking power, position, living in arrogance and vanity and yet at the same time talk about the people, the goodness and read books and you know, you play around with all that. All that indicates, doesn’t it, a terribly dishonest life, a life of total contradiction, like an excellent lawyer who is capable of arguments and beating the other side, and going off to some temple miles away to worship. You understand the contradiction? And they are totally unaware of this. So, the first thing is—excuse my voice today—the first thing is to realise how disorderly our life is. To be aware of it, not how to bring order in disorder—please listen to this—not how to bring order in disorder, but to understand the nature of disorder. Right? When I understand the nature of disorder, then out of that comprehension, out of that obvious fact, comes the beauty of order, not imposed or disciplined or suppressed or conforming, but in the very investigating of disorder, naturally out of that investigation, order comes. Right? You understand this? Now let us do it.
First, let us be aware, as human beings who have got such extraordinary capacities, look what they have done technologically—immense things they have done. And as human beings who are so extraordinarily capable, who have thought out almost every form of concept, principles, ideas, religious projections, invented rituals that have religiously… most beautiful some of them but have no meaning at all. And the human mind—I don’t know if you have gone into your own minds. If you have you can observe it—what great quality it has. Thank God! And to challenge such a mind, to demand that it shall operate at its highest excellence. Will you do it as we are talking so that your mind, your mind being not only the various forms of sensory activities, your mind being the emotions, affection, love, care, attention, the intellectual capacity, and that sense of great love—all that is the mind, the wholeness of the mind. To challenge that—do you understand what I am saying?—that it shall operate at its highest, at its greatest excellence. Because if you don’t challenge it, we live in disorder. You are following all this?
So, we are inquiring into what constitutes, why human beings centuries upon centuries have accepted to live in disorder politically, religiously, economically, socially, and in our relationship with each other. Your understand? Why? Why have we accepted to live this way? From whom do you expect the answer? Do you understand? A challenge implies that you respond, that you respond with your highest capacity and not wait for the speaker to respond and show how to respond. You follow? You understand what I am saying? I have challenged your mind. The speaker has said exercise your highest capacity, exercise all your energy to find out whether it is possible to live in a world that is degenerating, corrupt, immoral, whether you can live a sane, a life that is completely whole—that is your challenge. You understand? What is your response to it? Whole, the word ‘whole’means first healthy. Both physically, psychologically, with all the capacities of your mind, and therefore with sanity. And the word ‘whole’also means holy, sacred; that is the whole of life. So we are asking whether you as a human being are aware the total disorder and degeneration out in the world around you and in yourself the degenerating process going on? Are you aware of it? Aware in the sense observe what is actually taking place, not imagine what is taking place nor idea of what is taking place but the actual happening: the political, the religious, the social, the moral degeneration of man. And no institution, no guru, no higher principles are going to stop this degradation. Are we aware of it? If we are, then what shall we do? Right? Right sir? What shall we do? What is your action—not in some future date—what is your immediate action? Will you join some sect, will you follow some guru or will you go back to your old tradition, repeating something or other, rituals, to escape from the actual fact of the brain that is going to, that is getting old, degenerating. Or will you, together—you and I—investigate, explore why human beings have become like this? It is happening the world over, it isn’t just the speciality of this spiritual land. Sorry to use the word ‘spiritual’, because you are so proud of your own culture. It is like a politician saying we are very old, our culture is ancient. Then that gives him a certain sense of dignity, but in his heart he is—you know what it is, I don’t have to tell you. So, what shall we do?
I would suggest that we first look at our life—actually what it is, what is happening in our life because our life in action is society. Right sir? You get it? Agree? Our life in action is our society, and you cannot transform that society unless you transform yourself. That’s so obvious. The communists, the liberals, the socialists will not alter it. Or your reading the Gita, the Upanishads will not alter it, or becoming terribly interested in what Buddhism has to say, or follow Zen meditation, you know, none of those will solve it—don’t know what has happened today—so, let us look at what is happening in our life, in our daily life. Our daily life is based on relationship. Without relationship, you cannot possibly exist. Right? What is our relationship with each other, not you two sitting together, I don’t mean that—but with your wife, with your husband, with your boss, with your factory worker, with your labourer, what is your relationship with each other? In that relationship is there order? Not self-centred activity opposed to another self-centred activity—you follow what… That is contradiction. I may be married, have children, sex and all the rest of it, and if I am self-centred, concerned about my own success, my ambition, my status, worrying about my—all the rest of it—and she is also concerned about herself, her problems, her beauty, her looks and you know, all the rest of it—how can there by any kind of relationship between the two people? You understand all this? If you have one belief and the other has another kind of belief or another kind of conclusion, another kind of dogma, there is no relationship. Haven’t you noticed all this?
So, is it possible to bring order in our relationship, with your wife and husband? Not with the universe, not with cosmos, not with God. God is an invention of the intellect. You can have extraordinary relationship with those things that you have invented, with the illusions. But to have relationship with your wife and husband and children so that there is no conflict between us. That’s where the order begins. Right? Right sir? Now, how will you bring order there, because order we said—please listen to it, listen to the beauty of it at least—order is sequence in space, we are going to examine this, what we mean by space, what we mean by sequence, what we mean by order.
If we have not relationship with each other, there is fear. Either one dominates the other, either they separate but only come together in bed. So, we live a brutal life with each other. Haven’t you noticed all this? Don’t you know all this? And in what way shall we bring order so that it is enduring—not one day order, the next day disorder? What brings about this contradiction in relationship? Contradiction between my voice and what I want to say—probably I should have drunk a little water before I came here. Avanti. Let’s go. What brings this division between you, your wife, your husband and your children? Division is disorder. Right? Right sirs? The Muslim and the Hindu, the Jew and the Arab, the communist, the totalitarianism and freedom. These opposites is the essence of disorder. Right? So, what brings about disorder in our human relationship, with the most intimate and not so intimate? Have you ever thought about it? Come on sirs! Or are you frightened to look at this disorder? Because, when you become aware that your wife and yourself and the husband or the wife becomes aware of this disorder, either they accept it and live with it or to analyse, to go into it, to investigate it and that may bring about a tremendous change and there is a fear of change. You are following what we are saying? Ah? Right sir? There is my friend, at least I can talk to him. What brings about this disorder? Now, I am saying something—please listen carefully—I am not, we are investigating, I am not saying it is right or wrong. Is it desire? I mean by desire, the sensory responses with its image which thought has created, and the action, the urge of that desire—you understand my—Zeus! I mean by desire, the speaker means by desire—please investigate it as we go along, don’t accept what he is saying—the perceiving, the seeing, sensory seeing, contact, sensation and with the sensation goes the image which thought has created, and desire—you have understood this? Is this fairly clear?
You see a nice thing. The seeing, the touching, the smelling, the tasting and the sensations, the sensation which is identified with the image which thought has created, and desire is the outcome of it. Right? Clear? So, I am asking, we are asking: is one of the factors of this contradiction, this lack of relationship—I am using the word relationship in its right sense—to be wholly in contact with each other, not merely sensory contact, not merely sexual contact, but to contact holistically, wholly with another. Is that prevented by desire? So we are investigating, is desire love? Because with desire goes fear and one of the factors of disorder is fear. Right? Must you have all these lamps? Phew!
So we are saying, the factor of disorder is desire and fear and the incessant pursuit of pleasure. We have explained what desire is. With desire goes will. Will is the action, concentrated action of desire. Right sirs? Just investigate it. And we function, our life is based on desire, will and fulfilment, and with it goes frustration. And out of this comes fear, various forms of fear. Fear of not being successful, fear of losing a job, fear of being lonely, fear of not having love or given love to you, fear of losing attachment, fear of darkness, fear of physical pain, and so on, so on, so on. You are familiar with all this, aren’t you? So, we are saying the major factor of disorder is the operation of desire always with the picture of achievement and fear. The fear that has not been resolved by human beings: fear of death, fear of loneliness, fear of not having the capacity to act greatly and so on, so on. And also one of the causes of disorder is this incessant pursuit of pleasure. So, we are going to examine those three things very carefully because our concern is to bring about order, and to bring about order one must understand this confusion in which we live, and the confusion is this activity of desire with its changing objects. You may not, when you are young, you may not want to have a great status, great position, great wealth, but as you grow older the thing changes. As you approach death, you want enlightenment, god and all the rest of it. So, the objects of desire change constantly.
And fear which is one of the major factors of disorder in our relationship, intimate and not intimate, and the longing, the private, personal pursuit of pleasure. So, these are the major, deep factors of disorder in our life. We have explained the process of desire—seeing, touching, tasting, smelling, the sensory responses, from that sensory response a sensation, with contact, then thought saying how marvellous it would be if I could have that. Which is the thought creating the image of a car, you driving in it and having fun. So that is the movement of desire. We are saying what is fear? Please go with me, find out for yourself because we have lived generation after generation with fear. We have got good brains. We have got capacity to resolve fear, not to live with it. To live with it is to live in darkness. To live with it is to deny the beauty of total existence, the beauty of the earth, the beauty of the sky. So, we have to understand it, not intellectually but delve deeply into the very roots of fear.
Fear is time. Because, look at it carefully. There is physical fear, the bodily pain, the remembering of that pain and hoping that pain will not happen again, that is duration of time. Right? You are following this? Please, if you don’t give your mind to it—because it is very important for us to understand this, because the mind demands that human beings be free, because when you are free, life becomes totally different. And a person that is burdened with fear can never be free. And when the mind is enveloped with fear, there is no possibility of clarity, of insight, of pure, unadulterated perception of things. So, we are asking, we are saying that time is the movement of fear. I have had pain last week, the remembrance of that pain, physical pain, and there is the fear that it might come back again. Right? Right? That is one fear. The physical fear of getting hurt, bearing pain or having been ill and hoping it will never come back again. Now, can you—please listen to this—can you, when you have pain, physical pain, when it is over, totally forget it, totally non-register it? You understand… You have understood what I have said?
I am sure most of us had some kind of physical pain of different kinds, variety, multiple kinds of physical pain. When it happens, to observe it and not let that pain be registered in the brain. Will you do it as we are talking? Now, let us look at it for a minute. The brain’s capacity consists in registering everything that is happening to it. Like a computer it is registering. You must have noticed, obviously. The happening to the physical is registered. And then that registered happening is a remembrance, and that remembrance, that memory of that pain brings about fear that it might happen again. We are asking a very simple thing but very subtle. Go into it. You will see it for yourself. Having physical pain, and not let it become a memory. You understand sir? Do you follow what I am saying? Now, just wait. You hurt me by calling me a name, or praise me, as yesterday somebody did—not to register the praise or the insult, so that your brain is fresh. When you register, it is the movement of time. Right? So, we are saying fear is the movement in time. We can understand physical pain. I know, I can observe it very carefully when it is happening, be very, very attentive or let it happen and not be associated with it at all. I am telling you something which actually happened to the speaker. I am not inventing this.
Then, fear is what might happen or what has happened and the remembrance of it and projecting that remembrance into the future and saying ‘I am afraid.’Do you understand? That is, the movement from the past through the present to the future. Most of us are afraid, of what? Look at yourself sirs, investigate. What are you afraid of? You may not be afraid of sitting there now. Obviously. But when you leave here, the fears come back, conscious or deeply hidden. What are your fears? Fear of death, fear of loneliness, fear of not achieving enlightenment, fear of not being very successful and having lot of money, fear of being dominated by another, whether it is the husband or the wife—what is one afraid of? And can you analyse it? Please listen. In analysis there is…
Thank you sir. May I drink?
Krishnamurti: It might help. But I doubt it—in analysis several things are implied. There is the analyser and the thing which is going to be analysed. Right? In analysis is implied time. You follow? I have to analyse all the time, that includes time. And every analysis must be complete. Otherwise, I remember, the remembrance continues, and with that remembrance you analyse. Therefore it is never complete. You understand? Doesn’t matter, you go into it. First of all in analysis, there is the analyser and the analysed. The analyser is the analysed. Right? That is, thought has divided itself as the analyser and the thing to be analysed. So, it has created a division. Thought in its very process is limited and therefore fragmentary and therefore has the capacity to divide. That which is limited is always capable of division. That which is whole is never, can never be divided. I wonder if you capture all this! Please don’t look at me like a guru, that’s all. That is the last thing.
So, we are saying analysis will not solve the problem. You can discover the cause, and the discovery of the cause and the effect of the cause and the effect becomes the cause for the next happening. So, it’s a constant chain—the cause becoming the effect, the effect becoming the cause. Right? In that circle, there is no answer. You will have to think it out for yourself if you are so inclined, because we are so used to analysis which prevents direct perception. So, we are asking what is the cause of this extraordinary fear that human beings have, both conscious as well as deep, hidden fears? If you observe or look into fear, fear is never actual. Do you understand? You are only, you are recording it either when it is over or might happen in the future. Right? I don’t know if you understand this. All right, let me put it differently. Why am I working so hard for you? The other day a man asked me as I was walking out after of the talk, he said to me: You ask us why we come, what reason, curiosity, this or that. And he said, why do you speak? Do you want to know why I speak? Because sir—oh, forget it, does not matter. That’s not important.
Like pleasure, at the instant of pleasure there is no recording. It is only a second later that recording takes place. Haven’t you noticed it? Have you? Sexual, any form of pleasure as it is actually happening, you are totally unaware that it is called pleasure. If you have been angry—I hope you haven’t—if you have been very angry, at the moment of that feeling, it is just a feeling, but when you begin to name it, which is a second later, it becomes anger. Then you say, I must control. I must not be angry, and all the rest of it follows. So—please just listen—at the moment of a pleasurable thing happening to you, there is no recording, the brain is not functioning. Only a second later thought comes along and says how marvellous that was, that meal was so good, that sunset was so lovely, I must have more of that kind of food, or I must see more sunsets with such delight. You follow? So, are you aware at the moment of fear, at the second of the thing arising, and as it arises, not to let thought come into it, recognise it from its past experience, say that’s anger, but realise thought has no place at the moment of action? You understand all this? That requires great alertness. So, If the mind is so alert, at the moment of arising this feeling called fear, and realise it, and the very realisation of it, the truth of it prevents thought from interfering. Have you understood this, anybody? Are you doing it?
So, fear and pleasure go together. Have you realised that too? You can’t have one and deny the other. So, to delve into both, see the whole movement of fear and pleasure and the desire which is involved in fear as well as in pleasure, see the whole nature and the structure of it, not intellectually, verbally, but actually as you see this microphone—then you come to the question that the fear or the pleasure is not different from the observer. The observe is fear. Please listen to it. There is no thinker without thought, thought has separated the thinker and itself as being separate from the thing it has created. Right? So, the thinker is always trying to control, shape thought. So, fear is not separate from the observer, yourself. You are part of that. And when you say I must control it, I must have courage, I must escape from it, I must dodge it, I must analyse it, you are playing a game with yourself. Whereas if you recognise the fact, the truth that the fear is you. .You are the result of time, you are the result of thought put together by various… I won’t go into all that. It is fairly simple.
So, fear is you, and when you have realised that, you cannot possible act, and therefore you are observing it purely—when you observe, the very thing which you are observing undergoes a radical change. Are you doing it? Will you do it? Will you observe without the observer because the observer is the past and the observer will prevent clear, objective, direct perception. So, realising that, the observer says: I have no place in observation, and therefore the observation is pure. When you observe fear without the observer, which is the past, then that very fear which is being observed, undergoes a radical change. It is no longer fear. At least, will you memorise this? Intellectually see what is implied. That fear and the avoidance of it or the suppression of it or the transmuting it or saying—I must struggle with it—all that will not wipe away fear because you have done all those things and it has remained with you for millennia. And we are saying something entirely different. We are saying, the fear is you. You are the result of time, and can there be observation of that fear without time, without remembrance. Just to look. That is, can you look at your wife or your husband as though you are looking at her for the first time in your life, without all the remembrance of sexual pleasure, nagging, bullying, dominating, without any of that, to look? Because, knowledge prevents you from looking. And it is the freedom from knowledge that will end fear completely, not partly. Not this fear or that fear, but the root of fear.
And in the same way, can you look at pleasure? Right? You have lots of pleasures, haven’t you? Sexual pleasure, pleasure of having money, pleasure of having a position, pleasure of being somebody politically—you know all that business—pleasure of having power, pleasure of having a good mind, pleasure of having a good body, the pleasure that comes through comparison with its fear, the pleasure of imitating somebody and becoming more than that which you imitate. Right? There are all these extraordinary forms of pleasure—the pleasure to find enlightenment, which is the ultimate pleasure of seeking God, which is really a tawdry affair. So, can you investigate into yourself the whole nature of fear, pleasure? As we said, pleasure is the movement of desire, broken up in time. To observe it minutely, precisely, with great precision, to observe, not to analyse. So, we are saying the cause of disorder is desire, fear and the everlasting pursuit of pleasure. It doesn’t mean suppressing the delight of seeing a beautiful thing, the delight and the enjoyment of a lovely sky, looking at the morning star, bright, alone, or seeing southern cross towards the south—that very seeing of the heavens is a great delight. But the moment thought says: I must go back again on that balcony and look at that Venus, morning star, then begins the whole pursuit of pleasure. Just to look.
So, we are saying those are the basic causes of disorder. When you have understood that, not intellectually but actually finish with it, so that you have joy in your heart. Joy is not pleasure, but the moment you remember the joy saying I have had a most marvellous moment of joy, how I wish I could get back to that, then it becomes pleasure and you have lost it. This is the sequence in our life to establish order in, with our family.
And , what is space? It is 25 past 6. I think you are too tired. I cannot deal with space. It requires a great deal of investigation, space in the mind, that means never a mind that is occupied with any problem. But our minds are so occupied, so crowded with belief, with pursuits, with all kinds of things, confusion, illusion. So, there is no space. So, where there is no space, there cannot be sequence and order. And if there is no order in our daily life—for heaven’s sake, realise this!—in our daily moments of everyday life, your meditation is merely an escape from your ugly life and escape into meditation only leads to illusion. So, we must lay the foundation to find out that which is beyond thought, that which is immeasurable, that which has no word. But that cannot come into being without this sense of great order in which there is total freedom.